If all factions in Warhammer are morally grey than justify:

[SpiffyGonzales]

Beastmen (literally just wanna destroy civiliztion)
Chaos (basically norsca except without a good reason for worshipping evil gods)
Greenskins (beastmen but they do it just for the fight)
Vampire Coast (Greedy Pirates... only including them since they a faction in the game)
Archan The Black (wants to ressurect nagash)
Skaven (I actually feel like they are somehow so im just curious on this one)

Bonus:
The Moot (A merry hunt they've led us on and now we find them feasting and.. and SMOKING!!!)

[The Ohio Question]

Kapika96 の投稿を引用：

The Cure の投稿を引用：

I would propose the reference in Jeremiah 1:14, in any version of the various Christian "Bibles," which describes a great evil emanating from the north. This is the Hebrew Gog and Magog mythos interpreted for a later era. It describes a chaotic evil coming from the north to fight and rival the civilized south. This is the basis of the Warhammer meta conflict.

Huh, so there's theological support for the idea that south > north? I'll be sure to point that out to my northern friend the next time I see him. The more reasons I can mock him for being northern and say how great the south is, the better! :)

*Laughs in winning the war and not being burnt to the ground by Sherman*

[JediMasterDraco]

KellyR の投稿を引用：

JediMasterDraco の投稿を引用：

While I agree to some extent, many of the good guys are capable of being morally upright (and demonstrate this). Most of the prominent figures on the side of order are capable of great selflessness and have demonstrated time and again that they will not merely standby when those they care for are threatened.

Yeah they're not exactly leaping to aid one another, but I'd have a hard time believing that if a Chaos portal opened in China, that every country in the world would instantly start pouring aid into a country that has tense relationships with other nations at times. And a similar thing would almost certainly happen if such a portal opened here in the US.

Just because there is an external threat does not mean everyone under threat is going to be all buddy buddy. In fact, I'd dare say that the Fantasy universe probably does so to a greater degree than the real world would.

I think you're focusing on the wrong things. Focusing on who you fight is sort of an immature, adolescent male way of thinking. The fact that Brettonia for instance fights against chaos doesn't in any way change the fact that they treat their own people in a way that is pretty bloody objectively evil.

You can't be "morally upright" and keep slaves. You just can't.

I'm not even going to get in to this debate.

[The Cure]

Kapika96 の投稿を引用：

The Cure の投稿を引用：

I would propose the reference in Jeremiah 1:14, in any version of the various Christian "Bibles," which describes a great evil emanating from the north. This is the Hebrew Gog and Magog mythos interpreted for a later era. It describes a chaotic evil coming from the north to fight and rival the civilized south. This is the basis of the Warhammer meta conflict.

Huh, so there's theological support for the idea that south > north? I'll be sure to point that out to my northern friend the next time I see him. The more reasons I can mock him for being northern and say how great the south is, the better! :)

I'm not getting into the quagmire that is that other thread (or any other north/south skirmish), but in terms of mythos and what Warhammer was going for? Yes, the great chaotic evil came from the north and the civilized south was at their mercy.

Granted, and obviously, the new world was not known at this time period in Hebrew/Christian writing.

[Oblivious]

Some good replies already ITT.

Greenskins are almost comparable to wildlife. Think of wildlife in Africa, an eternal war between species fighting each other or trying to survive. Orcs and Goblins aren't much different. Instead of fighting to find a mate, they fight because they need it as much as food or water to survive.

IMO Beastmen, like someone else posted, seek the destruction of civilization. The same way that civilization destroys most species in lands they build on. In their case there probably is quite a bit of 'hate' towards humans. But it's the same kind of hate that humans might have against invading aliens, or another human species that believe their ways are better and destroy everything that is not up to their standards.

You can even give some arguments for Chaos.. A Norscan Chaos follower might slaughter humans, because he needs to do so in order to survive and appeal the Chaos Gods. The same way a butcher might slaughter lamb in order to feed his family. In the land of Norsca and the chaos wastes there's not necessarily an option to set up a farm and live a civilized life.


Bretonnians (and to some extent The Empire) abuse the poor and have them basically enslaved via feudalism. Conscription is a common thing to even send young men to war against other human factions. They rob the lives of innocents for their own greed.

While it's not on the level of 40k, You can be sure that Witch hunters and religious fanatics hunt down innocents because they might have insulted Sigmar or have been falsely accused to being witches/chaos followers.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Here's my justification, OP: you're implying that the factions you name aren't morally grey because they somehow oppose your own default morality.

All morals are grey. There's no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil.

The Skaven might seem evil to some, but it could be argued that their actions are driven by constant, massive overpopulation, food shortages and the desire of every other sentient race to exterminate them on sight because they're mutants. They certainly don't call themselves evil, so what makes the opinions of the other races correct? Moral relativism, and nothing else.

[The Ohio Question]

Snorri Nosebiter の投稿を引用：

Here's my justification, OP: you're implying that the factions you name aren't morally grey because they somehow oppose your own default morality.

All morals are grey. There's no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil.

The Skaven might seem evil to some, but it could be argued that their actions are driven by constant, massive overpopulation, food shortages and the desire of every other sentient race to exterminate them on sight because they're mutants. They certainly don't call themselves evil, so what makes the opinions of the other races correct? Moral relativism, and nothing else.

I mean the actual ABSOLUTE EVIL of the chaos gods is pretty damn clearly not a moral grey area. And i swear to god if you bring up papa Nurgle as a counter ima give you such a pinch

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Spicy Rain の投稿を引用：

I mean the actual ABSOLUTE EVIL of the chaos gods is pretty damn clearly not a moral grey area. And i swear to god if you bring up papa Nurgle as a counter ima give you such a pinch

It's not evil if you're a follower of Chaos (or one of the gods!), so it's not absolute.

If bending the world and its inhabitants to your will and exterminating the ones who don't agree is absolutely evil, then every race in WH fits that description.

[Invicta]

Spicy Rain の投稿を引用：

Snorri Nosebiter の投稿を引用：

Here's my justification, OP: you're implying that the factions you name aren't morally grey because they somehow oppose your own default morality.

All morals are grey. There's no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil.

The Skaven might seem evil to some, but it could be argued that their actions are driven by constant, massive overpopulation, food shortages and the desire of every other sentient race to exterminate them on sight because they're mutants. They certainly don't call themselves evil, so what makes the opinions of the other races correct? Moral relativism, and nothing else.

I mean the actual ABSOLUTE EVIL of the chaos gods is pretty damn clearly not a moral grey area. And i swear to god if you bring up papa Nurgle as a counter ima give you such a pinch

keep in mind, the chaos gods do not only represent the vile demonic things in their realm but the abstract concepts of each thing. I think tts weirdly put it best, tzeentch may create schemes and cause terror through his actions, but he is also the driving force behind people who plan to stop those attrocities as well, khorne doesnt just represent mindless blood shed, but honor and duty, and slanesh may represent decedency and excess but she also represents creativity and the the ability to feel joy from ones actions, and lastly nurgle represents disease and decay, but he also represents life in general, or in other words, he technicly fuels the natural world and the cycle of life and death.

the only faction that is completely irredeemable in the setting are the skaven, as they are litterally speaking a corruption of the concept of humankind and civilization in general, its why their biggest cities save for skavenblight/hellpit exist under the biggest human cities, and also they are the embodiment of all the worse traits of humanity, such as unregulated experimentation, slavery, overpopulation,etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG7VvMGw6w0 heres the episode in question for anyone who is curious, most of the points in it directly corrolate to the warhammer fantasy varients of each chaos god.

[KellyR]

Technically speaking, humanity created the Chaos Gods. They're just following the natures we gave them.

[The Ohio Question]

Snorri Nosebiter の投稿を引用：

Spicy Rain の投稿を引用：

I mean the actual ABSOLUTE EVIL of the chaos gods is pretty damn clearly not a moral grey area. And i swear to god if you bring up papa Nurgle as a counter ima give you such a pinch

It's not evil if you're a follower of Chaos (or one of the gods!), so it's not absolute.

If bending the world and its inhabitants to your will and exterminating the ones who don't agree is absolutely evil, then every race in WH fits that description.

Yeah thats pretty dumb logic, "they hyper evil chaos followers dont see themselfs as evil as they flay babies for there god So ItS NOt AbSOlUte!

its absolute evil, argue semantics if you want but its utterly silly to do so

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Spicy Rain の投稿を引用：

Snorri Nosebiter の投稿を引用：

It's not evil if you're a follower of Chaos (or one of the gods!), so it's not absolute.

If bending the world and its inhabitants to your will and exterminating the ones who don't agree is absolutely evil, then every race in WH fits that description.

Yeah thats pretty dumb logic, "they hyper evil chaos followers dont see themselfs as evil as they flay babies for there god So ItS NOt AbSOlUte!

its absolute evil, argue semantics if you want but its utterly silly to do so

It's not dumb logic. It's perfectly rational.

An absolute evil is one that is evil no matter the circumstances and no matter who perceives it. Everyone must agree that it's evil, or it cannot by definition be absolute. There's no such thing as absolute good or evil because good and evil are moral concepts and morality differs from person to person.

Can you give me one example of an act that everyone would agree is evil no matter the circumstances? Also, you mentioned baby-flaying- would it be evil for a human wizard to flay a Marauder baby in a ritual if that ritual somehow sealed the polar Chaos gates?

By claiming the existence of absolute good or evil, all someone actually does is say "My morality is better than yours".

[Hieronymous]

Look. Any faction that has to be defended from moral judgement by an appeal to moral relativism is evil.

If the skaven came to me and said "well in our culture eating your children is morally good," I would name them evil and resist them unto my death.

There are a variety of ethical systems to choose from. Only the most loathsome, moral relativism, provides cover for skaven, chaos, and foul Bretonnia.

Virtue ethics. Deontology. Utilitarianism. Religious morality. Pick one.

But devil take you (and why not?) If you insist on relativism.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Hieronymous の投稿を引用：

But devil take you (and why not?) If you insist on relativism.

I suppose that sentence explains your abhorrence of moral relativism.

I'm not defending the actions of these cultures. I'm defending their points of view. I think the Skaven and followers of Chaos are as evil as you do, but the key point there is 'I think'. Good and evil do not exist as universal forces outside of human perception. They're points of view.

[The Ohio Question]

Snorri Nosebiter の投稿を引用：

Spicy Rain の投稿を引用：

Yeah thats pretty dumb logic, "they hyper evil chaos followers dont see themselfs as evil as they flay babies for there god So ItS NOt AbSOlUte!

its absolute evil, argue semantics if you want but its utterly silly to do so

It's not dumb logic. It's perfectly rational.

An absolute evil is one that is evil no matter the circumstances and no matter who perceives it. Everyone must agree that it's evil, or it cannot by definition be absolute. There's no such thing as absolute good or evil because good and evil are moral concepts and morality differs from person to person.

Can you give me one example of an act that everyone would agree is evil no matter the circumstances? Would it be evil for a human wizard to flay a Marauder baby in a ritual if that ritual somehow sealed the Chaos gates?

By claiming the existence of absolute good or evil, all someone actually does is say "My morality is better than yours".

Mate your arguing the side of a demon worshiping apocalyptic cult trying to sound smart. There pure evil, nothing to it. This isnt a moral grey "Gotcha" argument.

There whole, SINGLE overdriving purpose is to destroy the world. Devils argument at such a point is flatly silly.

And yes killing one marauder baby who would just grow up to be a doomsday cult death warrior to SAVE THE WORLD would be justified. Come off it

[Hieronymous]

Sorry Snorri. I hate moral relativism in life as I hate Bretonnia on these forums. Perhaps I over reacted.

I agree that there is no moral absolute, and this is why I believe strength is a moral imperative.

It's not enough to be good. You must also win.