Are demigryph knights better than Reiksguard/Knights of the Everlasting light/Blazing Sun?

[Chuddly]

I know they're great but does their low unit count render them less effective than the other knightly orders?

[Lack of Stuff]

Why would it? Low unit count means more hp per model and easier support with a life mage, it also means they don't get stuck so easily after a charge. The empire horse cav is also very slow unless you buff them with an Arch Lector.

[Chuddly]

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Why would it? Low unit count means more hp per model and easier support with a life mage, it also means they don't get stuck so easily after a charge. The empire horse cav is also very slow unless you buff them with an Arch Lector.

That's a good point. I thought low unit count meant, while they may have more health, they die more easily because each individual unit in combat gets attacked more by the enemy or something.

[Mr Robert House]

They’re vastly better, the 10 extra speed makes all the difference

[Lack of Stuff]

Originally posted by Mr.CanEHdian:

Originally posted by Lack of Stuff:

Why would it? Low unit count means more hp per model and easier support with a life mage, it also means they don't get stuck so easily after a charge. The empire horse cav is also very slow unless you buff them with an Arch Lector.

That's a good point. I thought low unit count meant, while they may have more health, they die more easily because each individual unit in combat gets attacked more by the enemy or something.

Larger models can get attacked by more models at the same time so you aren't incorrect, but Demigryphs and horse mounts aren't all that different in size and cav shouldn't really be stuck-in getting attacked on all sides for an extended period of time.

[burningmime]

In general, fewer models in a unit is better for everything except holding a line/position. Note that with large units, not every model is attacking; often times the knights in the back just stand there waiting for a chance to move in, but with demigryphs most of the knights will be active in combat. They also heal any damage to full except lost models, so if damage is spread out evenly between the knights they will be at full strength once the battle is over.

[wpegg]

Less effective at doing what? Personally I find them totally ineffective for the way I play as I only use cav to snipe artillery, and armoured cav is just not as good at it.

So to define effective you'd need to first decide what effect you want from them.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by wpegg:

Less effective at doing what? Personally I find them totally ineffective for the way I play as I only use cav to snipe artillery, and armoured cav is just not as good at it.

What do you mean by that? Demigryph knights are faster and hit harder, so would be technically better at sniping artillery. Of course, you're right that if that's the only thing you want them for, plain Reiksguard would be a much better value for money and faster to recruit, so there's no need for Demigryphs.

[SpeaksTooFast]

IMO better but also more expensive/harder to recruit and they are not going to be your best damage dealers in most empire army comps.

If you like combined arms they can be great for protecting the flanks but would not really recommend making a demi focused army unless you have money to burn and want to have fun with it.

[grognardgary]

Flying cavalry is a backline killer for most armies. Numbers really are too low to be stuck in the scrum except maybe as the back breaker, yowaed the end of the battle. the fear factor from the griffs could break an army that may already be teetering.

[Hex]

Demis with Halberds are probably *THE* best cav units in the entire game. However, Empire is NOT a cav faction, it's a mixed unit faction. If you want an ez faceroll "I'm too stupid for this game" faction, Empire isn't it.

[Verchial]

OP: yes. All day long, and in every scenario. Use Demi’s with lance/shields to hammer enemies and charge their rear lines. Use Demi’s with halberds to gank enemy cav or anything else large and sweep the lines. With a rangers, steel or swiftness banner, Demi’s become truly awesome.

Some empire players seem to like reiksgard & blazing sun but i don’t ever recruit them. I don’t even construct the buildings. They are just too slow and take too much damage on withdrawal from charges. Plus Blazing Sun are stupid high cost for being so slow and such a niche unit.

I might recruit some Knights of Everlasting Light to fight vampires but don’t find much use for them otherwise. And even then, usually only if I have a banner or two handy to speed them up.

[wpegg]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by wpegg:

Less effective at doing what? Personally I find them totally ineffective for the way I play as I only use cav to snipe artillery, and armoured cav is just not as good at it.

What do you mean by that? Demigryph knights are faster and hit harder, so would be technically better at sniping artillery. Of course, you're right that if that's the only thing you want them for, plain Reiksguard would be a much better value for money and faster to recruit, so there's no need for Demigryphs.

I just tested it, and they're nearly identical in their artillery clearing performance, demigryph get there faster, but take a tad longer to clear them because of the model count (I think they overhit). Both lost about 5% of the unit getting there.

However my point was (badly made) that both are a bad choice for the job as the better choice would probably be outriders. This was an example though to point out that we need to assign the purpose of the unit to determine its effectiveness. If we're rear charging infantry to get them to break then the fear factor is important (but also the model count and charge bonus) vs if we're using them as anti-cav or front charging black orcs.

[Verchial]

Front charging Black Orcs. Yuck.

[wpegg]

Originally posted by Verchial:

Front charging Black Orcs. Yuck.

:) It was a regular joke/argument point a while ago when cav were being heavily overpowered by counter-charging infantry. There was the (quite reasonable IMO) point being made that you really shouldn't be using cav for that.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by burningmime:

In general, fewer models in a unit is better for everything except holding a line/position. Note that with large units, not every model is attacking; often times the knights in the back just stand there waiting for a chance to move in, but with demigryphs most of the knights will be active in combat. They also heal any damage to full except lost models, so if damage is spread out evenly between the knights they will be at full strength once the battle is over.

I'd differ a bit.
For ranged its very clear.
More models, more shots fired -> more dmg.

For melees its a bit different.
A normal fight between two melee infantry units won't have most units in active combat, its probably close to 1/3 of your models that fight.

That changes if attacked by large units as those normally penetrate the line and allow the melee inf to surround them. Flanking/rear hits remove a huge part of MD.

Monsterous inf/cav or regular cav get affected the most by it if fighting regular inf.

SEs get surrounded by any non SEs, but SEMs usually got large splash and even larger knockback, allowing only a small amout of melee inf to fight back.

After battle all non SE models get back to 100%hp.

So the result heavily depends on what and how you charge.

Also inportant to note, units with lots of models profit more from fixed number buffs over % buffs, that is if they can bring their numbers to bear.
Like charging cav penetrating infantry.
The 45 reiksguard get more boost out of their 62 charge boost (simplified 45x62 bonus dmg on strike 1) compared to the 24x60 of regular demis.
Both profit highly from the MA buff from charge.