Wood Elves Vs High Elves?

[FallenShaw]

Do wood Elves have any advantage over them at all now? Besides hawk riders which dark elves were given

[Wyvern]

Wood Elf shooting is still better, both skirmish cav and on foot. Their infantry component is also pretty decent. Its a really tough matchup though.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by FallenShaw:

Do wood Elves have any advantage over them at all now? Besides hawk riders which dark elves were given

In what mode? SP?

WE lord's provide the best red line in the game, and I'd still take waywatchers over sisters of avelorn (I assume that is what you are talking about with that being the most recent addition).

WE are awful at a matchup against HE, but they can defeat most other factions quicker than HE can, and they snowball a lot faster and can field doomstacks much earlier.

[strike478]

WE still have mobile archers. Also wooden infantry and durthu in Campaign (although 1 more nerf and he will become bland).

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by strike478:

WE still have mobile archers. Also wooden infantry and durthu in Campaign (although 1 more nerf and he will become bland).

Durthu is hardly a nerf away from anything. The guy is still the most powerful lord in the game early - late if you spec him for it. They actualy buffed him recently too by giving him the ancient treeman skills.

[FallenShaw]

Originally posted by Entropy:

Originally posted by strike478:

WE still have mobile archers. Also wooden infantry and durthu in Campaign (although 1 more nerf and he will become bland).

Durthu is hardly a nerf away from anything. The guy is still the most powerful lord in the game early - late if you spec him for it. They actualy buffed him recently too by giving him the ancient treeman skills.

Actually thats Incorrect, 1v1 with other faction main lords he loses with being fully speced out. Maybe abuse with equipment could change this but honestly the enemy lord facing him would have to get the same equipment to be fair. I believe 1v1 one of the vampire counts is acrually the overall strongest lord late and early. Due to his regenration and an ability to use a flaming sword fire magic ect.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by FallenShaw:

Originally posted by Entropy:

Durthu is hardly a nerf away from anything. The guy is still the most powerful lord in the game early - late if you spec him for it. They actualy buffed him recently too by giving him the ancient treeman skills.

Actually thats Incorrect, 1v1 with other faction main lords he loses with being fully speced out. Maybe abuse with equipment could change this but honestly the enemy lord facing him would have to get the same equipment to be fair. I believe 1v1 one of the vampire counts is acrually the overall strongest lord late and early. Due to his regenration and an ability to use a flaming sword fire magic ect.

I seriously doubt that claim. Durthu is ludicrous in melee. Like, really crazy ludicrous. Ignoring ridiculous item combos and just going off raw basics, the only competitive lords are Wulfrik+Mammoth, Kholek and Grimgor+Grimloq, but except for Wulfrik, who just has way too much HP to contend with, Durthu can about 50-50 both of the others. Then consider the fact that Durthu has a better series of skills to buff himself than any of those guys, plus has magic for himself, and he is VERY easily toward the top of the list of powerhouse lords.

[00yiggdrasill00]

the WE have a better ranged component and their melee infantry is better in my mind till the late game and stay more versatile, but they lack the powerful airforce of the HE, they also have no artillary and limited magic compared to the HE. ive also found the HE cav to be very good with its mix of cav and chariots

[FallenShaw]

Honestly I want wood elves reworked to be a unique faction, and at the top of thier type of playstyle. Which is heavy macro shoot n scoot. I'll define my Idea completely below, but to sum it up for light readers, Its a more focus is fight in forest with being in a forest giving a unit big buffs and taking penailty to stats for fighting out side of the forest.


First General Trait affecting all units.

Woodland Homefield : All Wood elf other than top teir units recieve +15 move speed +5 melee attack and +6 melee defence. while in a forest. and get a 10MS -3 melee attack and -3 melee defence when anywhere outside a forest. Can also run threw trees, not needing models to run around. Also Shielded units increase their shield by 1 teir while in the forest, and all shield above bronze are reduced to bronze shields outside the forest.

Top tier units or T5 units recieve less of a bonus and penailtiy, +10ms, +2 melee attack and +2 melee defence. Shield increased by 1 tier in forest remains same outside of it. Can pass threw trees unhindered.


Archer Traits Traits

Woodland Archery Natural. all land and cav missle units recieve +10 range while in a forest, and -15 when fighting anywhere out side the forest. Woodelf Arrows are not blocked/ affected by trees by trees, Instead they pass threw and onto the target. The bonus effects only apply inside a forsest where as the negitive ones apply anywhere outside it, Also all missles units can Fire while moving, Air born missle units instead only gain the passives shots not hindered in or out of a forest and fire while moving.

Craft Wooden Arrows Ability - all Wood elf only missle units can activate this ability every 20 seconds Ammo by n by Wood Elves have unlimited ammo on the fly, The ability upon completion Craft 5 special arrows deemed hasty brittle wooden arrows. Only way it gets cancled is if the unit comes under attack. Which are added to your empty ammo supply. Negiitives 10 seconds of standing still, must be used in a forest, Activation a 1 time debuff, that persist threwout the battle is put on you. Your shot damage is reduced by 50% and all special properitys other than normal damage are removed. Also temp debuffs persist threw out the 10 seconds and 5 seconds after. Those being melee defence reduced to 1 and armor reduced to 0. Speed is also -20

Woodland Sniping Finest : All archers on foot above very bottem teir units can fire and remain unseen in the forest. Anywhere else and they are seen.

Cav archer ability Spinning arrows. A toggeling ability causeing your missle cave to run at full speed in a 0 Firing and the first releoded in time to fire another shot. Boost single target or lord damage to them, boosting both normal and special arrows by converting 10% of normal damage to AP damage. Also rarely misses single targets and spreads damage equally upon all models taking missle damage down side, any hit or charge taken is considered to hit the units flank.

Hawk rider ammo is boosted by +5, again can fire while moving,
Passive trait for Hawk Riders, Aireal Ace : 30% of missle hits are dodged.

Woodland Treefolk

Rooted : Passive trait all Tree folk who are stationary and not engaged in a fight gain after standing still for 5 seconds. Trees with Rooted draw nutrience from the earth while in the forest gifting them a passive regen 1/4th the normal regeneration speed, visually sprout leaves, gain an additional 10% immunity to missles, -5 melee defence, -10 movespeed and removes fire weakness. Trees rooted outside of a forest only gain -7 melee defence -20 move speed. Rooted trees take 2 seconds to up root and move, when uprooted regen is stopped instantly after 5 seconds they lose all benifital perks and negitive debuffs. These Affect all non dyrad treefolk heros lords and units.

Armor of Thorns : Passive trait, Gained after spending 10 seconds in a forest TreeFolk while having this buff return 10% of all non ranged damage onto the attacker, and gain 10 armor. Buff lost after 7 seconds outside a forest.

Spouting dyrads = Treeman active trait, can not use if Army Roster is full, not in a forest, and not rooted. Spawns a decaying, unbreakable, Perm Armor of thorns dryad unit of young dryad unit. Charges 3. Young Dryads are the same as normal ecp have a - 10 melee defence, 0 armor. + Young dryads only last 15 seconds at full hp. 30 second cd on this ability.

Dry Wood Bark - After 20 seconds outside a forest Tree Units gain an additional resistance to normal damage by 10% but lose 10 Armor, -10 Movespeed, and Fire damage weakness is doubled.

Woodland Dragon

Unique Active trait : Consume, Can not activate if not withing 100 meters of trees. Upon activation consumes all trees/ and treefolk within 100 meters restoring hp equal to 1% per tree and 3% per treefolk unit. Activation also restores breath attacks and buffs them to 1.5x damage While removing the charges by 1 permantly. Trees, and Treefolk consumed are removed from the map. Dragon becomes stationary and ignores all orders for 20 seconds or attacked. Upon 20 seconds or being attacked Dragon recieves Stuffed trait for 15 seconds.

Stuffed = -25 move speed, flight disabled, scalely skin disabled.



Conclusion of Rework and reasoning.

Currently the Wood Elves are like a half version of the High Elves the Wood Elf DLC promised a unique and alternate playstyle and Roster line up. Which this rework it makes the Units even if of the same name very unique to Wood Elves. It encourages the Long ranged scoot and shoot playstyle while reinenforcing the Wood Elves to fight only in a forest. While in the forest they will more than likely become the Top Tier race in the game, outside the forest however they will prob be below average at best. The additional traits like that of the dragon's consume add a sense of stratigic choices to the player, as it will provide a benifit to the dragons power, for a long but temp debuff and loss of 100 meters of forest the elves could of used to fight in. Also it introduces the style of making using tree units to heal the dragon. For instance say they were at 10%hp and virtally shattered in moral. This would make that unit completely unless to the player yet it would remain on the field. This gives it a purpose in the theme of rebirth/growing/healing all aspects which are commenly assocated with plants and forest.

I introduce these aspects for consideration because they follow a themed value style about a forest the wood elves natural home. Thus it's only natural to believe their values would reflect there homelands natural climate and allys in it the tree folk. It will make them OP in the forest I'm aware and give them things like unlimited ammo as well as making them the fastest moving units, this is balanced in the sense that you never fight on your enemys terms you fight on yours, plus the wood elves have no arty. Meaning they are forced to engage or give the enemy player full use of thier arty units ammo, and then a meat shield to fight the elves in the forest.

The drawbacks for unlimited ammo, hp regen, and forest buffs are that most maps have sparced out forest meaning limited area space to kite. This means the Wood Elves stay true to the dev's design for them, making them the most micro intensive, positioning, and timing in the game. Failure to execute all three would result in a loss of the battle. Thus they are balanced. Aspects of Consuming, Rooted, Stuffed, and Crafting arrows give enemys a chance to catch wood elves in the forest, and once caught wipe the floor with them. This makes the wood elf player have to stop running and defend the units until they complete the said actions. Enemys will need to take advantage of the wood elves drawbacks and limitations on thier kiteing to win. So these Openings were created to allow just that. Consume is very intersting as it allows the wood dragon a max of 6 breath attacks and makes it very tanky although very vunable. Using the ability to much results in 0 forest. Also keep in mind there are many maps where there are 0 forest for the wood elves to recieve their buffs. Wood Elf players should attempt to avoid these maps at all cost.

Love to here your thoughts on this rework idea of mine, and no i do not know if it follows the Warhammer lore, I know nothing of the lore, Nor care to learn it. I play a game, not read books or play table top bs. This was made to fix a glaring issue of wood elves never being a better pick than high elf because the the new dlc. After playing mostly the wood elfs for 80% of my gameplay hours I generalised a theme around them and tried to base this rework on that. Yes I understand Wood Elfs can be very Op if used correctly currently, but same can be done with high elfs only safer. So I desided to eliminate the wood elfs being OP outside the forest, but boost it within, while requireing much more tacticial skill and marco skill to pull off than it currently does to pull off.

[FallenShaw]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by FallenShaw:

Actually thats Incorrect, 1v1 with other faction main lords he loses with being fully speced out. Maybe abuse with equipment could change this but honestly the enemy lord facing him would have to get the same equipment to be fair. I believe 1v1 one of the vampire counts is acrually the overall strongest lord late and early. Due to his regenration and an ability to use a flaming sword fire magic ect.

I seriously doubt that claim. Durthu is ludicrous in melee. Like, really crazy ludicrous. Ignoring ridiculous item combos and just going off raw basics, the only competitive lords are Wulfrik+Mammoth, Kholek and Grimgor+Grimloq, but except for Wulfrik, who just has way too much HP to contend with, Durthu can about 50-50 both of the others. Then consider the fact that Durthu has a better series of skills to buff himself than any of those guys, plus has magic for himself, and he is VERY easily toward the top of the list of powerhouse lords.

Durthu is Slow, Large, and Melee with no mount. Consider that a factor. He's strong but thats his weakness. A ranged Lord could wittle him down from afar or out run him and regen, lets not even consider a lord who was Anti Large, dealt fire damage, and a Duelist with hp regen. Durthu would have no chance.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by FallenShaw:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

I seriously doubt that claim. Durthu is ludicrous in melee. Like, really crazy ludicrous. Ignoring ridiculous item combos and just going off raw basics, the only competitive lords are Wulfrik+Mammoth, Kholek and Grimgor+Grimloq, but except for Wulfrik, who just has way too much HP to contend with, Durthu can about 50-50 both of the others. Then consider the fact that Durthu has a better series of skills to buff himself than any of those guys, plus has magic for himself, and he is VERY easily toward the top of the list of powerhouse lords.

Durthu is Slow, Large, and Melee with no mount. Consider that a factor. He's strong but thats his weakness. A ranged Lord could wittle him down from afar or out run him and regen, lets not even consider a lord who was Anti Large, dealt fire damage, and a Duelist with hp regen. Durthu would have no chance.

He doesnt need a mount because hes monstrous. Most ranged lords dont do ♥♥♥♥ to him because he has 100 armor, 20% physical resist and 15% missile resist, plus he has so much hp that he can shrug it off. There's literally only 1 melee legendary lord who consistently beats durthu in 1 v 1, and that's wulfrik. Kroq Gar and Kholek are right down to the wire, basically a draw. The only other lords who would play serious contender are norscan chiefs on a mammoth and HE lords on a star dragon, but thats an incredibly limited lineup and is completely ignorant of Durthus magic and superior self buffs between his yellow+redline(wood elves literally have the best skill tree in the game). Now sure, with certain items, you can get some lords to be functionally invulnerable, Ungrim and Kholek are the most common examples, but im sure there are others. That said, basing lords relative power based on some getting random items while others dont, or on specific gimmicks, is kinda pointless. Durthu can double his damage if WE get enough outposts for example.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by FallenShaw:

Honestly I want wood elves reworked to be a unique faction, and at the top of thier type of playstyle. Which is heavy macro shoot n scoot. I'll define my Idea completely below, but to sum it up for light readers, Its a more focus is fight in forest with being in a forest giving a unit big buffs and taking penailty to stats for fighting out side of the forest.

...Um, wood elves are at the top of their playstyle. They are literally the best shoot and scoot faction in the game already. Between deepwood scouts, way watchers and glade riders theres no competition. Their problem is specific matchups, where their lack of certain abilities can be crippling. They already get significant buffs in woods, and buffing them any further is just going to make them OP.


First General Trait affecting all units.

Woodland Homefield : All Wood elf other than top teir units recieve +15 move speed +5 melee attack and +6 melee defence. while in a forest. and get a 10MS -3 melee attack and -3 melee defence when anywhere outside a forest. Can also run threw trees, not needing models to run around. Also Shielded units increase their shield by 1 teir while in the forest, and all shield above bronze are reduced to bronze shields outside the forest.

Top tier units or T5 units recieve less of a bonus and penailtiy, +10ms, +2 melee attack and +2 melee defence. Shield increased by 1 tier in forest remains same outside of it. Can pass threw trees unhindered.


Archer Traits Traits

Woodland Archery Natural. all land and cav missle units recieve +10 range while in a forest, and -15 when fighting anywhere out side the forest. Woodelf Arrows are not blocked/ affected by trees by trees, Instead they pass threw and onto the target. The bonus effects only apply inside a forsest where as the negitive ones apply anywhere outside it, Also all missles units can Fire while moving, Air born missle units instead only gain the passives shots not hindered in or out of a forest and fire while moving.

Craft Wooden Arrows Ability - all Wood elf only missle units can activate this ability every 20 seconds Ammo by n by Wood Elves have unlimited ammo on the fly, The ability upon completion Craft 5 special arrows deemed hasty brittle wooden arrows. Only way it gets cancled is if the unit comes under attack. Which are added to your empty ammo supply. Negiitives 10 seconds of standing still, must be used in a forest, Activation a 1 time debuff, that persist threwout the battle is put on you. Your shot damage is reduced by 50% and all special properitys other than normal damage are removed. Also temp debuffs persist threw out the 10 seconds and 5 seconds after. Those being melee defence reduced to 1 and armor reduced to 0. Speed is also -20

Woodland Sniping Finest : All archers on foot above very bottem teir units can fire and remain unseen in the forest. Anywhere else and they are seen.

Cav archer ability Spinning arrows. A toggeling ability causeing your missle cave to run at full speed in a 0 Firing and the first releoded in time to fire another shot. Boost single target or lord damage to them, boosting both normal and special arrows by converting 10% of normal damage to AP damage. Also rarely misses single targets and spreads damage equally upon all models taking missle damage down side, any hit or charge taken is considered to hit the units flank.

Hawk rider ammo is boosted by +5, again can fire while moving,
Passive trait for Hawk Riders, Aireal Ace : 30% of missle hits are dodged.

Woodland Treefolk

Rooted : Passive trait all Tree folk who are stationary and not engaged in a fight gain after standing still for 5 seconds. Trees with Rooted draw nutrience from the earth while in the forest gifting them a passive regen 1/4th the normal regeneration speed, visually sprout leaves, gain an additional 10% immunity to missles, -5 melee defence, -10 movespeed and removes fire weakness. Trees rooted outside of a forest only gain -7 melee defence -20 move speed. Rooted trees take 2 seconds to up root and move, when uprooted regen is stopped instantly after 5 seconds they lose all benifital perks and negitive debuffs. These Affect all non dyrad treefolk heros lords and units.

Armor of Thorns : Passive trait, Gained after spending 10 seconds in a forest TreeFolk while having this buff return 10% of all non ranged damage onto the attacker, and gain 10 armor. Buff lost after 7 seconds outside a forest.

Spouting dyrads = Treeman active trait, can not use if Army Roster is full, not in a forest, and not rooted. Spawns a decaying, unbreakable, Perm Armor of thorns dryad unit of young dryad unit. Charges 3. Young Dryads are the same as normal ecp have a - 10 melee defence, 0 armor. + Young dryads only last 15 seconds at full hp. 30 second cd on this ability.

Dry Wood Bark - After 20 seconds outside a forest Tree Units gain an additional resistance to normal damage by 10% but lose 10 Armor, -10 Movespeed, and Fire damage weakness is doubled.

Woodland Dragon

Unique Active trait : Consume, Can not activate if not withing 100 meters of trees. Upon activation consumes all trees/ and treefolk within 100 meters restoring hp equal to 1% per tree and 3% per treefolk unit. Activation also restores breath attacks and buffs them to 1.5x damage While removing the charges by 1 permantly. Trees, and Treefolk consumed are removed from the map. Dragon becomes stationary and ignores all orders for 20 seconds or attacked. Upon 20 seconds or being attacked Dragon recieves Stuffed trait for 15 seconds.

Stuffed = -25 move speed, flight disabled, scalely skin disabled.



Conclusion of Rework and reasoning.

Currently the Wood Elves are like a half version of the High Elves the Wood Elf DLC promised a unique and alternate playstyle and Roster line up. Which this rework it makes the Units even if of the same name very unique to Wood Elves. It encourages the Long ranged scoot and shoot playstyle while reinenforcing the Wood Elves to fight only in a forest. While in the forest they will more than likely become the Top Tier race in the game, outside the forest however they will prob be below average at best. The additional traits like that of the dragon's consume add a sense of stratigic choices to the player, as it will provide a benifit to the dragons power, for a long but temp debuff and loss of 100 meters of forest the elves could of used to fight in. Also it introduces the style of making using tree units to heal the dragon. For instance say they were at 10%hp and virtally shattered in moral. This would make that unit completely unless to the player yet it would remain on the field. This gives it a purpose in the theme of rebirth/growing/healing all aspects which are commenly assocated with plants and forest.

I introduce these aspects for consideration because they follow a themed value style about a forest the wood elves natural home. Thus it's only natural to believe their values would reflect there homelands natural climate and allys in it the tree folk. It will make them OP in the forest I'm aware and give them things like unlimited ammo as well as making them the fastest moving units, this is balanced in the sense that you never fight on your enemys terms you fight on yours, plus the wood elves have no arty. Meaning they are forced to engage or give the enemy player full use of thier arty units ammo, and then a meat shield to fight the elves in the forest.

The drawbacks for unlimited ammo, hp regen, and forest buffs are that most maps have sparced out forest meaning limited area space to kite. This means the Wood Elves stay true to the dev's design for them, making them the most micro intensive, positioning, and timing in the game. Failure to execute all three would result in a loss of the battle. Thus they are balanced. Aspects of Consuming, Rooted, Stuffed, and Crafting arrows give enemys a chance to catch wood elves in the forest, and once caught wipe the floor with them. This makes the wood elf player have to stop running and defend the units until they complete the said actions. Enemys will need to take advantage of the wood elves drawbacks and limitations on thier kiteing to win. So these Openings were created to allow just that. Consume is very intersting as it allows the wood dragon a max of 6 breath attacks and makes it very tanky although very vunable. Using the ability to much results in 0 forest. Also keep in mind there are many maps where there are 0 forest for the wood elves to recieve their buffs. Wood Elf players should attempt to avoid these maps at all cost.

Love to here your thoughts on this rework idea of mine, and no i do not know if it follows the Warhammer lore, I know nothing of the lore, Nor care to learn it. I play a game, not read books or play table top bs. This was made to fix a glaring issue of wood elves never being a better pick than high elf because the the new dlc. After playing mostly the wood elfs for 80% of my gameplay hours I generalised a theme around them and tried to base this rework on that. Yes I understand Wood Elfs can be very Op if used correctly currently, but same can be done with high elfs only safer. So I desided to eliminate the wood elfs being OP outside the forest, but boost it within, while requireing much more tacticial skill and marco skill to pull off than it currently does to pull off.

WE are already arguably the strongest campaign faction, theyve been that way since the days of WH1. In MP, theyre more than competitive, and very much have their niche.
Honestly, youre proposed rework for WE is going to make them horribly broke OP in woods, while offering no real penalties outside of them. Youre trying to "fix" something that doesnt need fixing, without a valid reason for it. WE already get big buffs in woods, theyre already dominant in the kiting game, they have a very clearly defined playstyle thats fairly close to TT and their lore, and are rather well balanced in most situations, all of which matters although clearly not to you. WE definitely have a bad matchup vs HE, but are nowhere near inferior, in fact, in MANY situations, they are far and above the superior faction. To say the new HE DLC somehow obsoleted WE is flat out wrong.
Your entire proposal comes down to you wanting changes that you think would be "cool". Everyone has things they would like to see because they think it would be "cool", thats fine, theres a lot of units or features id think would be cool too. But to equate them with being necessary or somehow warranted as a means to alleviate some perceived inadequacy, all without any real justification, is kinda silly.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by FallenShaw:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

I seriously doubt that claim. Durthu is ludicrous in melee. Like, really crazy ludicrous. Ignoring ridiculous item combos and just going off raw basics, the only competitive lords are Wulfrik+Mammoth, Kholek and Grimgor+Grimloq, but except for Wulfrik, who just has way too much HP to contend with, Durthu can about 50-50 both of the others. Then consider the fact that Durthu has a better series of skills to buff himself than any of those guys, plus has magic for himself, and he is VERY easily toward the top of the list of powerhouse lords.

Durthu is Slow, Large, and Melee with no mount. Consider that a factor. He's strong but thats his weakness. A ranged Lord could wittle him down from afar or out run him and regen, lets not even consider a lord who was Anti Large, dealt fire damage, and a Duelist with hp regen. Durthu would have no chance.

Ranged heroes dont even kill generic lords that don't start with insane amounts of hp and armor decently. Run around skirmishing all day untill you run out of ammo and then finally charge at durthu and he will likely still win....on top of doing things like using flock of crows and sword of daith to destroy half your army as he wades though them oblivious to your pitiful archer lord's existence.

Wood elves have easy access to lore of life via 2 types of hereos and one type of lord, and the amount of hp you can regen per battle is based off of the unit's max hp (durthu has a lot btw)....so yeah don't plan on out-regening him.

Anti-large isn't magic either. It helps yes, but you have to have quite a bit to take on this hulking tree and his impressive stats and come out on top. a plus 15 won't save the majority of lords by a mile, and the fact that you had to add this and 4 other factors (duelist, fire damage, regen, AND ranged) just to stand a chance should tell you something.

[Aenarion]

A waywatcher stack with the right character skills is still a different class to any ranged HE can field. Sisters/SWs are not competitive with true missile elites:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/594570/discussions/0/2906376154329582296/

[The Hat]

In campaign sure the WE have some of the advantages listed above.

However WE are not near as strong as a seaguard build in campaign against the AI. Its easy mode. Just buy one unit, and maybe some artillery. Then get one leader that buffs almost all the army at once, because their buffs will focus on seaguard

AI melts to the massed ranged fire, and can do nothing, if they use cav or large they die, if they use archers they die, if they send in heavy infantry they have a shot but its so beaten up by ranged fire its already dead, and it is still getting shot all the time by the second row anyway. What are their flyers going after? Spears? lol.

Then CA in their infinite wisdom buffed seaguard a bit, which had me laughing my head off.

[Aenarion]

^ WE are one of very few factions that actually have a decent counter to a seaguard stack - namely, missile infantry that can out-trade them.