Purpose of Flamespyre Phoenix and Eagles?

[110]

Im on turn 81 of a v hard Alith Anar campaign. Recruited basically all the units just to try them out, and so far for me i cant find the purpose of the Flamespyre Phoenix and Eagles.

For the price they seem really ineffecive. Eagles just die, while doing minimal damage (Ive even researched most of the tech for them and have almost all the Lord buffs for them) and basically the same goes for the Flame Phoenix, although I only dont have the tech for them.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Green:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Eagles honestly arent that good vs arty, especially not at higher difficulties where AI gets BS levels of leadership. They dont kill the crew quickly, they dont rout them quickly and as high elves you have a lot of far better artillery counters, even early on. Eagle Claws are actually one of the more competitive CB arty in the game, ellyrian reavers are dirt cheap, available at tier 2 and can run roughshod over arty crews.

the idea of an Eagle is to cycle charge though - regardless of damage, you automatically pull the crew off the artillery piece and both in MP and (surprisingly) in SP, it can take a while before it gets re-manned.

Fair point on the demounting thing vs AI, though Id still say you get a better arty shut down with a tier 2 unit of reavers.
In MP the eagle gets denied pretty easily though. If you order a guncrew to hold and keep firing, they can be getting horribly slaughtered by enemy melee and not demount the gun(same with normal shooting units). While I do understand the value of cycle charging, the eagle just doesnt do enough damage to units with a good amount of models. charge bonus or not it just makes no difference if you cant hit more than 1 model.

[PuttBlug]

Originally posted by Green:

Originally posted by total warrior:

How many flying units do you guys use for your late game - elite high elf army? I used to pick only 1 of the strongest dragon available and keep 1 more slot open for 1 artillery piece. Do you think it's better to have some phoenixes to snipe enemy artillery?

it’s no secret that an army of only Star Dragons and Dragon Princes with a mage of Life will defeat anything.

The question is up to you: how much you’re willing to cheese the AI and how much upkeep costs can you spare.

I like to bring balanced armies: I recruit only Star Dragons late-game but I have a personal rule of max 4 (Lord included) per army. Same goes for any unit above tier 4 (Steam tank, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard...)

I usually try to go for 4 anti large inf. and 2 greatsword inf. no matter the faction (if they have appropriate high tier units of the type) 4 - 6 heavy cav. 2 - 4 missile infantry, 1 mage and the rest artillery or monsters depending on the faction.

For high elves I get 6 phoenix guard because they are far better than any other infantry the elves can field due to their physical resistance and overall stats, 6 elite archer units, 1 mage, 4 dragon prince cavalry, 1 artillery (although it is bellow average imo) and 1 dragon. But I believe I can replace the artillery and a couple phoenix guards with phoenixes and dragons, must be more effective.

[Kel]

both are really useful for sieges. Flamspyre for bombing the walls and eagles can target undefended artillary or just fly them into missile troops on the walls to tie them up.

[Æsir]

Originally posted by sherlock65:

OK, of course eagles have their uses (and all of them require a micromanaging that is not my cup of tea), and certainly I'd like to have one at hand against a Chaos army with their damned Hell cannons.
But overall, to fill one place of the 20, I'll always prefer other choices.
After all, when it's time to fight against seriously annoying artillery (like Chaos, as said) I'll hopefully have access to something better for flying&mobility (like some dragons).
In earlier phases of the game, I'll always prefer to put in one more LSG than an eagle.

But that's my choice. I do not doubt people good in using them well in battle can make them extremely effective. Only, again, not my cup of tea as I suck in micromanaging.

The thing about micro-managing will depend on your army composition. But usually you will have to attend to more pressing matters. So adding an eagle that needs baby sitting is not great.

I would also add that those eagle tend to get slaughtered through auto battles. Which can be a pain.

[Green]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by Green:

the idea of an Eagle is to cycle charge though - regardless of damage, you automatically pull the crew off the artillery piece and both in MP and (surprisingly) in SP, it can take a while before it gets re-manned.

Fair point on the demounting thing vs AI, though Id still say you get a better arty shut down with a tier 2 unit of reavers.
In MP the eagle gets denied pretty easily though. If you order a guncrew to hold and keep firing, they can be getting horribly slaughtered by enemy melee and not demount the gun(same with normal shooting units). While I do understand the value of cycle charging, the eagle just doesnt do enough damage to units with a good amount of models. charge bonus or not it just makes no difference if you cant hit more than 1 model.

I think I managed pulling off an Eagle in MP once, although as you say, my opponent might not have had guard mode. Also, quality of players in MP varies wildly, so I’m not sure what we can make of this experience. Its speed is definitely good and gives it at least some potential, though as you point out, its low MD and non-existent armor make it horrible in prolonged melee should it get stuck.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Green:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Fair point on the demounting thing vs AI, though Id still say you get a better arty shut down with a tier 2 unit of reavers.
In MP the eagle gets denied pretty easily though. If you order a guncrew to hold and keep firing, they can be getting horribly slaughtered by enemy melee and not demount the gun(same with normal shooting units). While I do understand the value of cycle charging, the eagle just doesnt do enough damage to units with a good amount of models. charge bonus or not it just makes no difference if you cant hit more than 1 model.

I think I managed pulling off an Eagle in MP once, although as you say, my opponent might not have had guard mode. Also, quality of players in MP varies wildly, so I’m not sure what we can make of this experience. Its speed is definitely good and gives it at least some potential, though as you point out, its low MD and non-existent armor make it horrible in prolonged melee should it get stuck.

Yeah, MP is definitely a little messy, some sort of ranked MM would help a lot. Either way I find the eagle is great as a mount in QM, in many situations better than dragons, but as a solo unit I think ive tried it a tiny handful of times, and never with particular success(closest to a success was a massive WE goon squad of eagles+lore of shadows caster with enfeebling foe, but despite winning the eagles came nowhere near paying for themselves)

[Gamefever]

Eagles are amazing,

Pro's
Very Fast and Flying
Does a lot of Damage
Causes Fear
Has a lot of health
Good Charge Value
Decent Armor Value
Really Cheap cost for what it is,
Amazing Flanker Unit
Can chase off and kill a lot of archer type units
Perfect for destroying Artillery
Great for destroying Routed Units (see fear and charge value)
Allows Instant Siege if even just one is in the Army
Can be Globally Recruited in 1 turn
Can tie up other Flyers and Large units (doesnt matter if it cant kill it, thats an actual useful tactic)

Cons,
Just slightly better MA and MD as standard infantry units (most Large Creatures dont have great MA/MD values)
Vulnerable to Anti Large stat/perk
Can be easily shot down by archer heavy armies
Is replaced in the Mid Game by better flyers and Noble Hero on Eagle.

Now eagles are really useful in the early game when you dont want to have to sit around build a siege tower that you will never really use as the High Elves cause shooting up the walls is just easier.

In any Race Unit Rooster that has very fast moving units its actually a seriously good idea to have at least 2 on hand for the whole purpose of killing off Routing units and thats just where the benefits begin.

Importantly as the High Elves you really dont have a lot of Air Power options until later in the game, but the Great Eagle is super easy to get into your early game army withen the first 20 or so turns.

The only other option to get Air Power is to wait till you have a Lord or Noble at level 15...By that time your entering your Mid Game and now you might have access to the Phoenix.

The Noble Hero is wasted on Great Eagle duty during the early to mid game anyway, as its more important to use him to secure influence points on the regular so that you can hire better Lords/Heros and also super important effect Alliances of the other High Elves and Races. Which leads to you being able to just confederate, and aquire other High Elves armies, heros, and lands.

[Æsir]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by Green:

I think I managed pulling off an Eagle in MP once, although as you say, my opponent might not have had guard mode. Also, quality of players in MP varies wildly, so I’m not sure what we can make of this experience. Its speed is definitely good and gives it at least some potential, though as you point out, its low MD and non-existent armor make it horrible in prolonged melee should it get stuck.

Yeah, MP is definitely a little messy, some sort of ranked MM would help a lot. Either way I find the eagle is great as a mount in QM, in many situations better than dragons, but as a solo unit I think ive tried it a tiny handful of times, and never with particular success(closest to a success was a massive WE goon squad of eagles+lore of shadows caster with enfeebling foe, but despite winning the eagles came nowhere near paying for themselves)

I personally prefer in mp light cavalry for artillery over Eagle. Much cheaper. Does the job and usually will do more damage over the battle than the Eagle will.

[Gamefever]

Originally posted by Æsir:

Originally posted by sherlock65:

OK, of course eagles have their uses (and all of them require a micromanaging that is not my cup of tea), and certainly I'd like to have one at hand against a Chaos army with their damned Hell cannons.
But overall, to fill one place of the 20, I'll always prefer other choices.
After all, when it's time to fight against seriously annoying artillery (like Chaos, as said) I'll hopefully have access to something better for flying&mobility (like some dragons).
In earlier phases of the game, I'll always prefer to put in one more LSG than an eagle.

But that's my choice. I do not doubt people good in using them well in battle can make them extremely effective. Only, again, not my cup of tea as I suck in micromanaging.

The thing about micro-managing will depend on your army composition. But usually you will have to attend to more pressing matters. So adding an eagle that needs baby sitting is not great.

I would also add that those eagle tend to get slaughtered through auto battles. Which can be a pain.

I just cant imagine how hard it must be for some people to just assign a number key to a Great Eagle. Might I suggest a better keyboard like the Mercenary Steel Series, it has all the number keys grouped up under your hand as well as all the other good shortcut keys.

[Æsir]

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Originally posted by Æsir:

The thing about micro-managing will depend on your army composition. But usually you will have to attend to more pressing matters. So adding an eagle that needs baby sitting is not great.

I would also add that those eagle tend to get slaughtered through auto battles. Which can be a pain.

I just cant imagine how hard it must be for some people to just assign a number key to a Great Eagle. Might I suggest a better keyboard like the Mercenary Steel Series, it has all the number keys grouped up under your hand as well as all the other good shortcut keys.

You are missing the point.

Avoid sarcasm in forums please. We have enough trolls around here.

[sherlock65]

Originally posted by total warrior:

How many flying units do you guys use for your late game - elite high elf army? I used to pick only 1 of the strongest dragon available and keep 1 more slot open for 1 artillery piece. Do you think it's better to have some phoenixes to snipe enemy artillery?

My standard late-game HE army is 6 Star Dragons, 12 LSG with shields, a hero with health regain skills, Lord with anything to reduce LSG mainteinance and/or improve their stats.
But I'm not a typical player, I avoid cavalry and anything that requires too much micromanaging in battles. This seemed to me a good "almost unbeatable from AI" but not excessively expensive build.

[110]

Thanks a lot guys! Tons of good advice here!

[Sn3z]

Eagles are not friendly units too archer heavy builds or LSG spam as these units promote a more defensive playstyle, if you run eagles you intend to be aggressive.

I run three eagles in my army(I don't see any reason to run more than that) they deal with weak missle infantry units very well(they can also get the better of quarellerers even at stock level but its close on higher difficulties). For numbers my eagles come out of each battle at their strongest with between 50-60 kills they do vet fast aswell so you need to look after them, they shutdown range to allow frontline units like lions to close in, they take pressure off your own missile units and means you don't need to absolutely flank to kill off missile units either. Flame phoenix is a transition from eagle but in campaign you can skip it for a sun dragon.

[DD The Pumpkin King]

Originally posted by Quesocito:

ok thanks guys! ill give that fire poop another go then! :)

and i see now the speed of the eagles does at least help to get to enemy arty quickly..

If you do coop, have a buddy control the Phoenix. Me and a friend always share army control, one takes the bulk of units, while the other micro a select few units like crazy

[anon_tyrant]

flame phoenix is awesome on walls. get on a line along the front of the wall, and bomb bomb bomb till u run now. take 1/4 health from all units in 10s. better than a dragon in wall assault