Dragon ogre shaggoth doomstack. Is it viable?

[Ardariel]

Started new chaos campaing, with chaged start position, near morathi. Lots of fun. But once i got kholek and supplied him with full shaggoth army i again faced same issue i had with them all previous time.

THey worth A LOT (meaning their value for purposes of balance of power). This army regularry got attacked by 3-4 armies of enemies and not easy to replenish. Yes, they do punchuing, but they are magnet of enemy forces. Especially since you cant ambush as chaos.

On other hand, my chosen army led by archaon had easy walk through ulthuan, then through brettonia, empire, back to chaos wastes (to complete quests), got attacked a lot on a way, but never had same issues as dragon ogres. Even after hard turn, with lots of beating, i can just merge unit together, recruit units on top and keep moving.

So i did same with knolek (recruited him chosen army). And, surprise!, i start rolling over lustria with him.


Before that i thought, that maybe it is just me, who dont know how to play with dragon ogres. Well, maybe i still not that good with them. But i still winning fights, so... i guess i can reevaluate things?

Does that extra power provided by shaggoths worth amount of troubles they lure towards army? I start to really question that.

Plz note, that i dont say that shaggoths are bad unit, not at all. Or that its not a doomstack. I guess it would be harder for new player to work with full melee slow army vs, lets say, empire. But on other hand, even for said player, chosen army is much easier to replenish. It forgives you, when you do mistakes. And they still punch hard. Especially if you start with archaon, as his faction bonus really boost them.

So, what do you think? Cause for me it really start to turn the other way. I gues si would just have 4 of shaggoth in every army as cavalry/disruptor, but not gonna go full shaggoth spam.

P.S.
Seems that i need to clarify couple of things.
I dont need general advice on how to play a game. Dont mind if you share one, but couple it together with thoughts on a tpoic at hand plz.
If you think i am bad with shaggoth (its fair to think so), plz assume, that i looked for how to play them. Text not gonna help. If you think, that there is smth important i missing in how to play them - send gameplay video. I would gladly look it.

[Basarab Laiota]

You're right that Shaggoth's biggest weakness is their replenishment rate. They get worn down after too many battles in a row. But it's their "best unit".
You also mentioned "finances" but you shouldn't really be worrying about that as Chaos, you get a LOT of money from sacking cities. Yes Shaggoths are bloody expensive but one stack of Shaggoths can create some serious problems for your enemies.
By the way, you want to BE THE ATTACKER and USE LIGHTNING STRIKE! This is super important for Shaggoth spam, they need to be fighting one army at a time or else they'll take too much damage and you have no way to heal expect for Replenishment at the end of the turn.

[Ardariel]

Basarab Laiota a écrit :

You're right that Shaggoth's biggest weakness is their replenishment rate. They get worn down after too many battles in a row. But it's their "best unit".
You also mentioned "finances" but you shouldn't really be worrying about that as Chaos, you get a LOT of money from sacking cities. Yes Shaggoths are bloody expensive but one stack of Shaggoths can create some serious problems for your enemies.
By the way, you want to BE THE ATTACKER and USE LIGHTNING STRIKE! This is super important for Shaggoth spam, they need to be fighting one army at a time or else they'll take too much damage and you have no way to heal expect for Replenishment at the end of the turn.

I did not mention finances. When i say "worth" it was in terms of balance of power, which is evident from my next point. Finances are not an issue for sure, as i mentined before, my archaon rn is on voyage through empire, getting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of money. THat does not bother me at all.

THeory of "always be attacker" does not hold water in practical sense. When all world is against you, you gonna be attacked. A lot. No matter how much scouting you have. And here lies difference in worth of units. Depending on what value your units have you gonna face different enemy forces.

[ArchAnge1LT]

Eh, doomstacking has logistic problems depending on doomstack and yes there are side effects that so called proponents tend to ommit. So, no you are not imagining, when playing horde the less damage you take with your army comp the better.

Shaggoth doomstack came about as being more powerful than Chosen one, comparing one-to-one, but in practice there are different problems with it.

They are no different from other single entity doomstacks that apply, with only problem being, Chaos does not have life magic. However, Chaos can research pretty ok replenishment, so in the end, it still viable option.

I think mixing the 2, Chosen and Shaggoths usually achieves more than just stacking one unit type.

[Ardariel]

ArchAnge1LT a écrit :

Eh, doomstacking has logistic problems depending on doomstack and yes there are side effects that so called proponents tend to ommit. So, no you are not imagining, when playing horde the less damage you take with your army comp the better.

Shaggoth doomstack came about as being more powerful than Chosen one, comparing one-to-one, but in practice there are different problems with it.

They are no different from other single entity doomstacks that apply, with only problem being, Chaos does not have life magic. However, Chaos can research pretty ok replenishment, so in the end, it still viable option.

I think mixing the 2, Chosen and Shaggoths usually achieves more than just stacking one unit type.

Well, sure, wiht life magic it wont be such a question.

But am i missing somthing in evaluation? Cause RN i dont even think shaggoth army worth to use even as a bait.

[Xaphnir]

ArchAnge1LT a écrit :

I think mixing the 2, Chosen and Shaggoths usually achieves more than just stacking one unit type.

Nah, if you have an army of both, the Chosen do pretty much nothing during the battle. They're way too slow to keep up with the Shaggoths.

Ardariel a écrit :

On other hand, my chosen army led by archaon had easy walk through ulthuan, then through brettonia, empire, back to chaos wastes (to complete quests), got attacked a lot on a way, but never had same issues as dragon ogres. Even after hard turn, with lots of beating, i can just merge unit together, recruit units on top and keep moving.

So i did same with knolek (recruited him chosen army). And, surprise!, i start rolling over lustria with him.

Was it just Chosen, or something else, such as Hellcannons, that were the real killing power behind your army?

I just can't see Chosen taking less damage than Shaggoths if you're relying on them to do damage.

Probably depends on your opponent, too. I could see Ulthuan and Lustria being easier for Chosen, as long as you have the right ratio of axe and shield to halberd, but if you're trying to get through the Empire or Dwarfs? Chosen would get slaughtered by their artillery and gunners.

[Ardariel]

Xaphnir a écrit :

ArchAnge1LT a écrit :

I think mixing the 2, Chosen and Shaggoths usually achieves more than just stacking one unit type.

Nah, if you have an army of both, the Chosen do pretty much nothing during the battle. They're way too slow to keep up with the Shaggoths.

Ardariel a écrit :

On other hand, my chosen army led by archaon had easy walk through ulthuan, then through brettonia, empire, back to chaos wastes (to complete quests), got attacked a lot on a way, but never had same issues as dragon ogres. Even after hard turn, with lots of beating, i can just merge unit together, recruit units on top and keep moving.

So i did same with knolek (recruited him chosen army). And, surprise!, i start rolling over lustria with him.

Was it just Chosen, or something else, such as Hellcannons, that were the real killing power behind your army?

I just can't see Chosen taking less damage than Shaggoths if you're relying on them to do damage.

10 shielded chosen, 5 halberds, 2 aspiring champions, 2 heroes (mage and exalted hero). And archaon himself.

Most killing power comes from archaon ofc. its lik 700-1k kills from archaon and chosen got 60-100 per squad, depending on where i use them. Heroes mostly work as support. Slaying artillery, distracting, etc. Its rare, when i got more kills to count.

Point is, that chosen, by being less worthy, makes enemy getting less units to attack. And the more losses you have after each individual battle - the lesser each next attack becomes. And chaos lords are no jokes, both magic and melee. And archaon alone worth 1-2 armies. So i dont want to say, that chosen army pull empire trip by themselves. By archaon with chosens do really well walking on their own in enemy territory. While i cant do same with shaggoth.

If army is led by generic lord, it becomes more about magic, ofc. And chosen can take a beating to hold.

[Ardariel]

Xaphnir a écrit :

Probably depends on your opponent, too. I could see Ulthuan and Lustria being easier for Chosen, as long as you have the right ratio of axe and shield to halberd, but if you're trying to get through the Empire or Dwarfs? Chosen would get slaughtered by their artillery and gunners.

Ofc, and as i noted above, i can see how it can be harder. But artillery and gunners tend to form juicy lines of fire, so it is exploitable. And yeah, heavy ranged army are worst for chosen. However i dont care that much, since it is just 1 turn to recruit them anew after battle and shields work good.

[Salty Nobody]

I never use a one unit type doomstack. Stacking Chosen and Shaggoths is more versatile and the infantry can keep your Shaggoths from taking too much damage, while the faster Shaggoths can catch annoying missile units and be the hammer to the anvil.

Also as Chaos it helps to make temporary allies of convenience so you can replenish in their lands and have a swarm of allied armies to clean up behind you. If you are instead going the masochistic route of trying to make a land of ruins you have my condolences.

[Ardariel]

The Fifth Archon a écrit :

I never use a one unit type doomstack. Stacking Chosen and Shaggoths is more versatile and the infantry can keep your Shaggoths from taking too much damage, while the faster Shaggoths can catch annoying missile units and be the hammer to the anvil.

Also as Chaos it helps to make temporary allies of convenience so you can replenish in their lands and have a swarm of allied armies to clean up behind you. If you are instead going the masochistic route of trying to make a land of ruins you have my condolences.

Why condolenses? This is fun!
Its kind of fun to be a ♥♥♥♥ XD.