Total War: WARHAMMER II

Total War: WARHAMMER II

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Algothar Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:12am
Gods in the lore
In Warhammer fantasy there is a lot of gods worshipped by a lot of races. I'm pretty sure that the Chaos Gods exist since they actively interfere in the world with their corruption and armies or whatever, but is this the case for the Non-Chaos god?
I mean almost each race has a pantheon of gods but do they actually exist in the same way as the Chaos Gods?
Originally posted by Aleera:
Just to clarify.

No, in warhammer lore, there is no creator god.
The 4 chaos gods are the earliest ones, the most primordial ones, based around emotion, a sheep feels anger and wants to attack a predator? Khorne feeds.

All the gods humans, Greenskins, Elves etc all worship, are creations by them. Their belief, their faith, their religion made them into being, into gods.

Gods are a product of life, Gods do not create life in this setting.
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Showing 1-15 of 27 comments
Conflagration Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:15am 
Originally posted by Algothar:
do they actually exist in the same way as the Chaos Gods?
Yes.
Algothar Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:17am 
Originally posted by Obsidian:
Originally posted by Algothar:
do they actually exist in the same way as the Chaos Gods?
Yes.
Well then, when a race worship a "creator god" do they worship the creator of their race? Or do all races worship the same god but with different names?
RomanRingOnIt Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:22am 
Originally posted by Algothar:
Originally posted by Obsidian:
Yes.
Well then, when a race worship a "creator god" do they worship the creator of their race? Or do all races worship the same god but with different names?
Different gods, Besides cant be the "Creators" but rather patron gods your thinking of as the creators are the Lizardmens "Old Ones".
Aleera Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:23am 
Originally posted by Algothar:
Originally posted by Obsidian:
Yes.
Well then, when a race worship a "creator god" do they worship the creator of their race? Or do all races worship the same god but with different names?

Creator of the race? No.
The creators of many races on "the fated place" (name of the world) are the old ones. A non god like race that fought Chaos gods.
Of them, only the Lizards revere them.

Many races have their own pantheons, which are actual gods. They're all seperate entities, some overlap in domain, but they're not the same god.
Dwarves revere their ancestors, but not as gods.

All the gods, eventhough some overlap in domain, are different entities.
Mathlann (Elf) and Manann (human) similiar in name, both are gods of the ocean. Both are different entities.

Hope that helps understand it a bit.
Last edited by Aleera; Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:24am
A.Pot Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:27am 
The Non-Chaos Gods generally are just less powerful and have to rely on powering up mortals to help them fight and even then they tend to that sparingly. Not all though for some like the Lady of the Lake of the Bretonnians, Sotek of the Lizardmen and Stromfels are certainly more active.

Humans and Ogre are among the only Warhammer races who don't have a creator god, but everyone else has one.
Algothar Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:28am 
While I was lost on the internet i saw that Araby worsship a "Single creator god" and the tumb king worship Ptra as "the Creator god of the sun"
So maybe I missunderstand and Ptra "just" created the sun.

An other quastion came to my mind about the Ancestor Gods and guys like Sigmar. Are they themselves also gods as we imagine them? Or are they considered as gods by their worshipers but in reality they are just dead heroes?
Aleera Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:36am 
Originally posted by Algothar:
While I was lost on the internet i saw that Araby worsship a "Single creator god" and the tumb king worship Ptra as "the Creator god of the sun"
So maybe I missunderstand and Ptra "just" created the sun.

An other quastion came to my mind about the Ancestor Gods and guys like Sigmar. Are they themselves also gods as we imagine them? Or are they considered as gods by their worshipers but in reality they are just dead heroes?

Sigmar was a human, ordinary dude, he united all the barberian tribes and became the first "emperor", he banded them together to defeat chaos incursions, greenskins etc.
Due to his status, he was worshipped, due to being worshipped, he actually became a god some time after death.

Sigmar by no means is a mere dead hero, he's a full on god in lore now. Able to make a avatar, as he did in the endtimes, he does give blessings to priests.

Basicly, in warhammer lore, if you believe in something enough, this belief, this emotion, collects and grows untill it eventually becomes a true entity, meaning if you take away all believers, there's no sustenance and said god will cease to exist.

This is a HUGE part of the endtimes, this is why Archaon is trying to destroy this world. He assumes, falsely, that this world is the sole source of sustenance for the 4 Chaos gods, he hates them. (he's a sigmarite priest at heart). He wants them destroyed. So, he tries to destroy the world (and succeeds) but this is just one of unlimited amounts of worlds the Chaos gods feed upon. The old ones came from other planets, each that had fallen to chaos influence. Sigmar etc however would slowly cease to exist though.

Originally posted by A.Pot:

Humans and Ogre are among the only Warhammer races who don't have a creator god, but everyone else has one.

Humans are a natural species, as are Dragons, titans. Greenskins are thought to have been spores that came with the Old ones by accident. (a invasive species introduced)

Elves, Dwarves, Ogres, Lizardmen all are creations of the Old ones. Ogres being their last attempt, but they didn't finish the Ogres, leaving them fairly mindless brutes. They were to be as obedient as Lizardmen, as resistant to chaos as Dwarves, yet able to wield magic as Elves could, in a package of superior strength.
Last edited by Aleera; Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:41am
Garatgh Deloi Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:38am 
Ptra is said to have created the human race (By the Nehekharans), however there are conflicting information about this and i'd argue that the origins of humanity in warhammer fantasy isn't clear.

One should always remember that lore in Warhammer (both fantasy and 40k) isn't always factual truth, its often written from the perspective of a faction and is what they believe to be the truth. So you will get conflicting info at times (honestly, i always felt like this is a brilliant logical excuse to solve the issue of conflicting lore).
Last edited by Garatgh Deloi; Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:43am
Algothar Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:41am 
Originally posted by Rianne:
Originally posted by Algothar:

Basicly, in warhammer lore, if you believe in something enough, this belief, this emotion, collects and grows untill it eventually becomes a true entity, meaning if you take away all believers, there's no sustenance and said god will cease to exist.

This is a HUGE part of the endtimes, this is why Archaon is trying to destroy this world. He assumes, falsely, that this world is the sole source of sustenance for the 4 Chaos gods, he hates them. (he's a sigmarite priest at heart). He wants them destroyed. So, he tries to destroy the world (and succeeds) but this is just one of unlimited amounts of worlds the Chaos gods feed upon. The old ones came from other planets, each that had fallen to chaos influence. Sigmar etc however would slowly cease to exist though.

So every god exist because of their worshippers but Chaos Gods are far supperior because they are worshipped on other planets and will pretty much always exist right?

If so it makes much more sense to me
A.Pot Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:51am 
Originally posted by Rianne:

Humans are a natural species, as are Dragons, titans. Greenskins are thought to have been spores that came with the Old ones by accident. (a invasive species introduced)

Elves, Dwarves, Ogres, Lizardmen all are creations of the Old ones. Ogres being their last attempt, but they didn't finish the Ogres, leaving them fairly mindless brutes. They were to be as obedient as Lizardmen, as resistant to chaos as Dwarves, yet able to wield magic as Elves could, in a package of superior strength.

Depends on the source you are reading. According to the Tyrion and Teclis books by William King, there is part where Morathi is recounting her early life and that the Elves already had a civilization when the Old Ones came around.
Major races other than the lizardmen don't have a creator god because the old ones which the lizardmen worship created most of the other races like humans, elves, dwarfs, halflings and ogres.

Humans worship a lot of gods but the main faction of humans, The Empire, mainly worship Sigmar, the mortal man that united the tribes of what is now the Empire, established a friendship of sorts with the dwarfs and then ascended into godhood. Ghal Maraz was a gift from the dwarfs and it is *THE* Warhammer of Warhammer. Church of Sigmar has a lot of clash with the Church of Ulric, the god of winter and wolves, the god Sigmar himself worshipped in his mortal days.

Bretonnians are a special case because they worship The Lady of the Lake who is actually Lileath, an elven goddess in disguise. She is arthurian legend through and through, she has a grail, she gives knights missions and once they're finished they drink from the grail and gain superpowers. Her personal representative is the Fey Enchantress, the weird flying lady in the game.

Elves have two pantheons, basically split between good and evil. High elves worship the good ones but recognize the bad ones, dark elves... appease the bad ones and recognize the good ones with the exception of Khaine which they full-on worship. Wood elves do both. Wood elves are special because they have Orion and Ariel. Orion is Kurnous, the elven god of the Hunt, in flesh while Ariel is a demi-goddess representative of Isha alongside The Everqueen who is the same except she looks less weird and is a high elf.

Dwarfs have Ancestor Gods. They are not worshipped but venerated because dwarfs value tradition over everything and the Ancestor Gods are quite literally their Ancestors but with god-like power. The Three main ones are Grungni, the god of miners and smiths, Valaya, the goddess of home and hearth, healing and brewing and finally Grimnir the ginger mohawk ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that murders things. Dwarfs dedicate themselves to Grimnir once they've lost their honour and become Slayers. They shave their heads down to a mohawk and dye it red then they charge into battle with no armour so that they might die a honourable death. There are many caveats to this death, as if your death causes the death of another dwarf that means it wasn't honourable, so you have to be completely suicidal but fight with every inch of your strength to not die. There is also Grombrindal who is basically a demi-god. He was the first high king of all dwarfs and when he and his wishes were betrayed by Malekith he got so angry he came back from the dead. Now he appears to help doomed dwarfs as a godlike figure. He is also the mascot of sorts of warhammer, being *THE* White Dwarf of the White Dwarf issues.
Last edited by barfbag69fartmachine; Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:56am
A.Pot Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:57am 
Originally posted by Algothar:
While I was lost on the internet i saw that Araby worsship a "Single creator god" and the tumb king worship Ptra as "the Creator god of the sun"
So maybe I missunderstand and Ptra "just" created the sun.

An other quastion came to my mind about the Ancestor Gods and guys like Sigmar. Are they themselves also gods as we imagine them? Or are they considered as gods by their worshipers but in reality they are just dead heroes?

Its important to note with Warhammer humans that a lot of their faiths and religions are shrouded in various different myths, legends and interpretations which muddy the facts. Kislev has their own sun god while the gods creation myths of the Tombs are noted to be suspiciously similar to elven accounts of the Old Ones.

Araby's single creator god who is referred to as The One God in the Orfeo books or simply Allah in the older edition rulebooks, may or may no longer be canon as supposedly they are worshiping Djinn (as in Arabic genies) now but according to the Tomb Kings, Djinn is just their name for Chaos Daemons and End Times does claim that Tzeentch is responsible for Araby's magical abilities.
Aleera Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:59am 
Originally posted by A.Pot:
Originally posted by Rianne:

Humans are a natural species, as are Dragons, titans. Greenskins are thought to have been spores that came with the Old ones by accident. (a invasive species introduced)

Elves, Dwarves, Ogres, Lizardmen all are creations of the Old ones. Ogres being their last attempt, but they didn't finish the Ogres, leaving them fairly mindless brutes. They were to be as obedient as Lizardmen, as resistant to chaos as Dwarves, yet able to wield magic as Elves could, in a package of superior strength.

Depends on the source you are reading. According to the Tyrion and Teclis books by William King, there is part where Morathi is recounting her early life and that the Elves already had a civilization when the Old Ones came around.

Yeah, don't trust a single word that comes out the mouth of Morathi in any source. Elves are a product of the old ones. One that can field magic without succumbing to the influence of chaos, one that's adaptable.
When they needed a race that resisted magic in all forms, they made Dwarves. But Dwarves lacked flexibility and both races were low on repopulating. Hence they desperately tried to make Ogres. (which are halfbaked basicly)
Algothar Oct 30, 2021 @ 4:04am 
I really like the fact that this is really complicated. Is there a book where I can find informations? I'm really want to stop reading random articles on the internet on unknown wikis. I would like a reliable source such as it exists for the Warcraft mythology
The author of this thread has indicated that this post answers the original topic.
Aleera Oct 30, 2021 @ 4:04am 
Just to clarify.

No, in warhammer lore, there is no creator god.
The 4 chaos gods are the earliest ones, the most primordial ones, based around emotion, a sheep feels anger and wants to attack a predator? Khorne feeds.

All the gods humans, Greenskins, Elves etc all worship, are creations by them. Their belief, their faith, their religion made them into being, into gods.

Gods are a product of life, Gods do not create life in this setting.
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Date Posted: Oct 30, 2021 @ 3:12am
Posts: 27