Has Vampire Coast (Noctilus) become harder since its release ?

[Imarion]

I'm not good at this game, I know.
Yet I finished a Thyrion campaign in normal (it was my first one)
And a Dwarf campaign in normal as well (had to restart once + check guides/gameplays videos etc).
Ok I did not really finish those campaign but reached the point where I had way too many armies to just do anything and it became just time consuming.

Now to the point.
I want to try the Vampire Coast, and as I heard about Necrofex doomstack I decided to take Noctilus.
I restarted this campaign 3 times already in Easy difficulty (yes easy).
And yet I find it quite hard.
I watched a playthrough of someone who got the DLC few days before its release in 2018, playing in very hard and he seems to have an easier time than me.

So the question is:
has things changed and made it that difficult ?
Watched several playthroughs from different people, checked guides, I really do not understand what I'm doing wrong.

Btw: playing Vortex campaign.

[Dragon Master]

I can't speak for Noctilus, but I just beat a Luthor Harkon vortex campaign.

My first finished campaign in fact.

I find that vampire coast factions don't need to expand as much as other factions since they can make huge income out of the pirate coves and unlike the Undercity for the Skaven, have no chance of being destroyed unless the town itself is razed.

The real trick is the firing line since rifles and pistols can't ark up and over the front line.

What you'll want to do is have the front line be firing then move them back behind melee fighters when their front line starts getting closer, making heavy use of mortars and cannons if you can afford them, then line your ranged units in the flank and keep firing.

With the red skill tree for lords and buffing gunnery mobs, cannonades and mortars, you'll do a very solid job in combat, and since your units are undead they'll never break.

The real game changers though are the monsters vampire coast units have.

[zefyris]

Since their release? Yes, 100% sure since they were brokenly good (and in fact, some of their mechanics were broken as in, bugged to be way better than they were designed to) and were nerfed quite a bit on many areas in the following patches.
So if you watch videos of vampire coast that were played during their release patch, you're clearly seeing an old, way more powerful, version of VCoast.

[Humble]

They are nerfed heavy on patch there and there, but thankful, you don't need to make war, just use hero to build pirate coves while you just keep building, to get Necrofex Colossus then spam that doomstack, it's not best overpower doomstack, that honor go to star dragon from high elf. It's take lot of turn to get there while trying not make war more than need to. Vampire Coast's low tier units wasn't good as used to be, but it's should be ok, not too bad if you clever to use each units.

[Imarion]

I'm a bit late sorry.
Thanks for the replies.

In the meantime I finished the campaign.

For the fights, I found the gunners and muskets really lacking and indeed they have "meat shield" trait. I found a whole line can barely cripple one infantry before reaching contact.
Even by lining them at the front like Dragon Master suggests. In the old/early videos they were efficient, but not so any more.
So early game you do not have many options to make damage during the fights.

So at some point I had 2 armies walking side by side and this went ok.

Late game, when I got enough money to create the 4th army, I decide to try some of the units, like the "canoniers" (highest tier in the canon tree). Wow those were efficient.
Those were actually doing damages when lined at the front. They were a true game changer. They should be in the gunner tree as they more fill this role than canons + plus they act more like gunners.

For the campaign I saw an advice (in a video) saying to establish a cove at Lothern.
But establishing + building the picaroons is so expansive it cripples the early economy to build the boat and the island and, as consequence, the army.
Plus the price malus + the cool down. Coves are the gameplay of this faction, yet they cost too much. You need like 15 turns to get back the investment. That's a lot.
Well while on the cool down, my 2 pirate heroes were searching for the riddles which compensate for the money.

Also the research takes too much time.
You will first research the regen rate and growth.
That's at least 26 turns before you get both.
Is it still worth waiting 10 more turns to upgrade the bucaneers ? not sure. Probably better to start the research for tier 2/3 units.

[Rack]

Cove in Marienburg can produce 2k per turn. 1,5 k in Hag Greaf. 1,2k in Lothern. And if your hero is level 10 you get your money back in 3 turns

[viryu9]

I've completed Noctilus VH on ME and Cylostra VH on Vortex. I've tried playing them differently, here are some thoughts:

On ME, your objectives are sadly to expand, with Noctilus the easiest direction is Brettonia and Southern Realms. I've read that on Vortex you don't even need to occupy anything, but I imagine replenishment rates must be horrible in the long run.

T5 single entity monster units are the easiest to win with, especially Necroflex. Noctilus gets some faction and personal buffs for them.

With Cylostra I've tried a balanced army with Deck Gunners as main damage units and Syreens as front line, just to try something different with a flavour. Nearly all the maps you will be fighting against AI is so uneven that it will kill most of the enjoyment. Skaven are somehow far more lucky with the map options for their ratling gunners. It's doable, but unit placement will take a lot more thought. When maps are decently even, it's quite more enjoyable than doomstacks.

[Imarion]

Originally posted by Rack:

Cove in Marienburg can produce 2k per turn. 1,5 k in Hag Greaf. 1,2k in Lothern. And if your hero is level 10 you get your money back in 3 turns

Well, the picaroon only gives 50% and costs 5k, so 1.2k in Lothern (this the early game income) is actually 600. Only that already means you need 9 turns to get back.
This is without counting the initial price of the cove which is increased by 200% (unless you wait for this huge cool down).
Even with the 30% discount hero trait, it is still +170%

[Imarion]

Originally posted by viryu9:

I've completed Noctilus VH on ME and Cylostra VH on Vortex. I've tried playing them differently, here are some thoughts:

On ME, your objectives are sadly to expand, with Noctilus the easiest direction is Brettonia and Southern Realms. I've read that on Vortex you don't even need to occupy anything, but I imagine replenishment rates must be horrible in the long run.

T5 single entity monster units are the easiest to win with, especially Necroflex. Noctilus gets some faction and personal buffs for them.

With Cylostra I've tried a balanced army with Deck Gunners as main damage units and Syreens as front line, just to try something different with a flavour. Nearly all the maps you will be fighting against AI is so uneven that it will kill most of the enjoyment. Skaven are somehow far more lucky with the map options for their ratling gunners. It's doable, but unit placement will take a lot more thought. When maps are decently even, it's quite more enjoyable than doomstacks.

The fact is regen is only in controlled area so if you do not expand you can only regen close to your island.
Going to Caledor helped me a lot in this respect.
Beside that, yes you can count on the coves to build up the infamy (that's what happened for me, I'm quite sure my coves brought the bunch of infamy beside the small income from quests).
Also maintaining the loyaulty with only fighting on the see islands/sunken ships etc is a bit hard. You do not have enough of them.

At some point I wanted to try syreens but with 0 armour I thought they would be just crippled unless very well controlled.

Ultimately my 4th army was composed of a mix of the highest tier unit (rotten leviathan, 3 I think, 4 necroflexes, 6 canoniers, 1 caronade, 3 canons and then lord and heroe)
Ultimately I did not create the necroflex doomstack with Noctilus, but a similar army and I won the final batlle (and campaign) with that.

Also at one point, I set the main island to the order of "non-dereasing loyaulty" yet the loyaulty of my lord standing there decreased. Granted it required more turns than without it, but it definetly decreased.

[chronobomb]

To get the most our of the basic gun line, you need to use Gunnery wights. They turn the them into snipers with the buff they provide. to them. I usually will space them so they can buff 3 Gunnery Mobs and 2 Mortars and suddenly you get tracking mortars and snipers. This is super powerful in the early game.

[Wh♂♂par]

What is the difference between Carronades and Cannons in your example army?

[abyssalfury]

Coast can vary pretty wildly in how they play, depending on how you do things. I had to restart campaigns twice until I 'got' them, but then it was a breeze. Easy mode for Noctilus is:

Only upgrade the main ship and the Anchor (that gives Growth). Don't bother building anything else until you're Tier 5 for both, as it just delays how quickly you get set up. Then build the one that gives Necrofex, followed by the cost reduction building. Research Ship's Carpenter (50% cost reduction for ship building is HUGE) and the Necrofex buffs. You can now build a Necrofex doomstack far earlier than other factions get access to their high tier units, and basically roll over everything with Necrofex that recruit in one turn and cost hardly anything. Then you can start recruiting the other Admirals with Shipbuilding (and no Loyalty!) to have them start levelling up.

The only other challenge is surviving until then, and that's basically just a matter of not picking stupid fights. And considering your starting location you can pretty easily avoid fights. Though smaller factions inviting big fish to declare war on you can be an issue if it happens too early - in particular you should wait a while before fighting Caledor, as they might invite the rest of the HE to come and play, but they tend to have bad relations with the other HE so if you wait a bit this is less likely to be an issue. .

[EnemigoDeLaMafia]

I've played plenty of Vcoast, although not finished yet as had to try again many many times. Main lord was aranessa.

The basic gunery mob with handguns are actually quite effective as long as they aren't engaged in melee. They can very quickly destroy a few incoming stacks without much trouble.

The thing is keeping them out of melee because otherwise they are as good as dead. I never found changing positions with the vampire coast very efficient because they are very slow so re-adjusting the frontline takes a lot kf time and causes a lot of damage. However you have many tools to employ should the guns be compromised.

Firstly is using your lord or heroes. Get invocation of nehek and intervene with your lord, then heal the wounded troop.

The gunery wigh has 2 bombs he can throw and also cause great damage to infantry.

The ethereal fighter you get (I forgot the name) tends to be an absolute beast, capable of destroying multiple stacks by his own. Since its undead it can also be healed.

When everything else fails you have the bloated corpses. You can decimate anything with these. Even swordmasters of hoeth will not stand a chance. They can be used to pre-emptively engage, if there are trees, or kept behind your line and send them in as they are close.

If the line is really compromised, which really should not happen much because to win you need to shoot at all times, monster support can save the day.

The rotting Prometheans aren't that good at dealing damage but they have pretty good staying power. Your troops can shoot through them as well. I'll usually keep em in the flanks and send them in if things start to look messy.

Animated hulks are trash. They are probably not worth the price Although they could sort of be used as meat shield. I just upgrade to anything else and never use them.

Finally for low tier monsters there are the mornghouls. These guys can devastate enemy lines and be used to kill archers. Since they have stalk, I like to wait a little bit and then send them from behind of the enemy front line.

Usually if the enemy lord is a flying unit I'll keep them close as a sort of bodyguard for my lord, specially if its a new one.

I like the necrofex colossus but I find them better in conjunction with other troops. I don't really spam a single troop. I'll bring up to 5 for a doomstack of sorts. However they are really vulnerable to being swarmed and in melee they aren't that effective, specially if the unit that did the swarming is a high tier. Henceforth i find they work better in lesser numbers with other units that ensure the battle plays out on your terms

I've seen Leon Leoncour take on 4 necrofexes solo with the freaking items and mobility and regen he gets. Naturally he sniped my trainee lord and army and then he singlehandedly managed to destroy the 4 necrofexes on normal combat difficulty. So, yeah, use support. Once they are crumbling they aren't as awesome.

---
As for all the campaign aspects.

You really are going to want to build your boat. So upgrade the main building and the anchor that gives + growth. If you start with something else built you are going to want to demolish it and build the anchor and then other things.

Recruiting other lords is a pain In the ass because of the loyalty mechanic. I'd recommend to research the unique admirals that cost you 2000 infamy as they both fet acrss to shipbuilding and skip this annoying mechanic altogether.

Them costing you infamy can even by useful to delay the fights with pirates that are scripted at a certain point. These guys will land and will besiege settlements so when they appear you want to be ready.

You don't need very much structure or land to start out. Out of everything, i find mortars essential so I would usually get that building.

If you manage to find a good battle site, you can essentially raise your whole roster there, with counted exceptions, without need for infrastructure. Skaven generally tend to produce good markers. Any area thats densely packed or that has a particular faction with mostly trash units will also produce markers.

The most difficult thing I find is the start
of the campaign. Crossbows and cavalry can be problematic. Make sure to always count with healing. Monsters will provide what you need to deal with cavalry, even if its just in the form of a meatshield.

Coves are nice but expensive. You probably only going to want to pay for a cove for a major settlement like the elven capitals, Altdorf, etc. If you can assault minor settlements just use the establish cove mechanics after you've sacked them.

There is really not too much incentive to hold onto land, specially not when you have to be building your ships and admirals. Also since you are considered a bad factiom, everyone comes after you. The vampiric corruption you need also increases the difficulty of owning land. Getting the shipbuilder that comes with research is very important as the cost of fully building the ships are very high.

In my last game, I simply allied the skaven and have used them both as a buffer and as a minion to take the land I back but can't hold. As long as the settlement is not razed the coves will stay where they are. Expect to be at war with all order factions some point Along the way, so the more you can cripple the good ones, the better for your late game.

[Imarion]

That's a lot of information.

I checked the Gunnery Wight and indeed it is praised.
Will give it a try if I replay a Vampire Coast campaign.
With my experience I want to try one in normal difficulty.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by Imarion:

That's a lot of information.

I checked the Gunnery Wight and indeed it is praised.
Will give it a try if I replay a Vampire Coast campaign.
With my experience I want to try one in normal difficulty.

That would be for the best.

Gunnery Wight's are one of the best heroes for the Vampire Coast faction. Noctilus is also one of the easiest Vampire Coast factions to play as since the Galleon's Graveyard does massive attrition damage to anyone who wants to attack it, and most enemies tend to avoid it.

I used Luthor Harkon in my example because he has a Lord benefit to increase the ammo of his ranged units, and his gunnery mobs, when targeting the same unit, actually do decent damage, but they're biggest utility is destroying the morale of the enemy and making them run, disrupting the formations.

I would recommend building up the blue skill tree for vampire count units to immediately get your pirate ship growth up, as well as building that building on your ship first.

When your vampire coast lord reaches 2 population points, you can hire a lord directly at their current location, and if it's on the site of a huge battle they can have a good army ready to go in a turn or 2 and be right there, raiding, sacking, razing or acting as reinforcements for your legendary lord and you can build up their loyalty fast.

Once they're level 5 and their loyalty is high enough, you can just disband them and their entire army and make them a fleet officer, never risking losing them and maintaining the fleet-wide benefits they can provide, whether increasing income or increasing growth on your pirate ship.

[Ardariel]

Just started my first campaing as vcoast. Money generally is not an issue, as you have plenty of ways to raise them. Treasure maps, sea encounters and sacking settlements let me be in negative gold all the time w/o worring (typical situation when i have about 50k gold with -10k income). Lother alone gives about 50k when you sack it (granted i have some bonuses, but not all, so it can be even greater).

Hard part is - that you fight vs all and cant adequately expand. have 3-4 stack routing my army is typical. I guess in ME it should be much easier to play em.