Maximum useful stats

[Mr Robert House]

So at what point do the various stats become useless?

I know armour stops being useful at 200 or 180 but that rarely matters, and can be hard countered anyway.

Ward save, magic, physical etc are what i’m most interested in, i keep hearing different numbers between 85 and 95.

Also do melee attack, defense and charge bonus ever get to a point where there’s no point buffing them further? eg tyrion going over 100 MA

Also supposedly reload time reduction is a useless stat after a certain point because of animations having to happen.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Hmmm, Melee attack is supposed to help hit targets, but I'm not convinced Dragon Ogre Shaggoths benefit. When I zoom into normal units fighting, I see them swing their weapons and sometimes I see an enemy go down and sometimes they swing and no enemy models go down. Shaggoths don't seem to miss unless trying to hit a single entity target. Of course, I only zoom in sometimes and it's usually when the battle has been effectivly won and blobbing everyone up together won't endanger the result, so it could just be a result of low sample size. I'd like to know if I'm wrong.

[SarmatII]

MA - MD is used to determine hit chance. Going above 100 is important only to counter units that have high MD.

Generally this is only for lords or heroes with items and buffs.

[chronobomb]

Due to the buffing units get as the difficulty goes up, you can never have to much on VH or Legendary. A 100 MA might only equate to 30 MA with the super stats Melee units get.

Wards and resists are capped at 90%.

Armor usually starts to fall off after 100 because you are either completely negating their attack or they are mostly AP in the mid to late game. Still good against a lot of Cav which lacks AP.

[enricofermi2]

With attack and defense, it's not a static number, but relative to what you expect to fight.

The max benifit from attack, is having 50 more attack than defense. This overlaps with charge a little bit, since charge grants attack.

The max benfit from defense is 30 more defense than attack.

Lastly (this is a soft cap) is ranged attack speed. Ranged units have attack animations that can't be reduced. Even if you increase attack speed by 100000 % you still have the animation, which can be suprisingly long. You see this the most with rattling gunners, who have massive animations with high attack speed. So reducing attack speed actually does almost nothing.

[Andrewbh2003]

all forms of damage reduction from resistances are caped at 90% so theres your answer

MA/MD is a bit more complicated where the answer is "Yes" but on a more technical level "No"

basically the base hit chance is 35% assuming say the attacking unit has 50 MA and the defending one 50 MD

however the minimum hit chance is 10% thus any time your unit has 26 or more MD than the targets MA that extra MD is "wasted' its why ironbreakers tend to under-perform cause so much of there stats are in MD but because very few units have over 60 MA it means that ironbreakers wind up being 'too tanky' for there own good lowering there MD by 8 and buffing MA by 4 would actually end up being a 'buff' rather than a nerf overall as an example

MA in particular the answer is more complicated as well as most of what applies to MD also applies to MA but again since the max hit chance is 90% that means that again "technically" you only "waste" MA if you have 55 more MA than the targets MD

but again at certain points from a mathematical perspective you start getting diminishing returns

like for example increasing your hit chance from 22% to 23% is far more valuable than increasing it from 72% to 73% so from a mathematical perspective the answer to when MA starts getting wasted is a fair bit more complicated

now if you want to see this in a practical sense you can look at none other than tyrion


now tyrion is overshadowed by alariel and her star and peclis with a bird that "funny enough" when he uses enfeebling foe + potion he can actually end up being a better duelist than tyrion

but despite being overshadowed by AMAZING lord like being "worse than alariel" is not to be ashamed of she puts most lords to shame over how good she is but anyway tyrion himself is not a bad lord by any means and the recent changes to foot characters have actually made "footryion" a genuine threat against for example skaven

yet despite that tyrion is not nearly as scary as a duelist as some people make him out to be "He is insane but ultimately there are several lords that outclass him in a duel these days" and that comes down to 1 key reason

his damage output being quite low if you notice a consistent trend in "combat" lords is that pretty much all of them have some form of damage spike "I mean archaon before his slayer of kings got reworked was a massive meme reason why he was called the neverchosen" but as soon as he got his AP split and slayer of kings got buffed in to the 800+ WS it is today he suddenly became REALLY scary

if you want a more recent example look at vladdy daddy and his recent AP split rework he suddenly became a lot scarier with AP majority dance kebab and his ring being reworked

but point is every dedicated combat character has some form of combat boost and tyrion comes in the form of feint and riposte/stand your ground and that becomes problematic because tyrion already has the HIGHEST stat-line of any lord in the game and with HE in particular you can have tyrion with upwards of 150 MD pretty consistently with all his abilities active and harmonic convergeance

but thats again leads to just "overkill" and the biggest reason for tyrions underperformance is the fact that he has no damage spike at all they all focus on buffing his already insane stats that more often than not dont benefit him as much as other lords

also more of a minor thing but tyrions AP ratio has been "borked" forever for a "AP" character his AP ratio is actually rather poor when compared to say grimgor or grombrindal or other combat characters that makes him actually less effective vs high armour than you would expect and further makes tyrions lack of a damage spike ability evident

in short "Yes" tyrion very much suffers from excess MA and not enough WS or AP for that matter and if you for example reworked faint and riposte to give like +50% WS and also fixed his broken AP ratio he would be a lot better than he currently is

[Mr Robert House]

I was thinking that with rattling guns, you buff their reload speed in various ways and their stat card keeps showing a ludicrously high dps but they don’t seem to actually perform differently.

Also is there a maximum movement speed?

thanks for the detailed reply

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by chronobomb:

Due to the buffing units get as the difficulty goes up, you can never have to much on VH or Legendary. A 100 MA might only equate to 30 MA with the super stats Melee units get.

Difficulty buffs don't give anywhere near that much. If they did, melee damage dealers would not just be weak but completely useless on higher difficulties.

[chronobomb]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Difficulty buffs don't give anywhere near that much. If they did, melee damage dealers would not just be weak but completely useless on higher difficulties.

While 70 MD is less common there are plenty of AI troops that get 60 MD with campaign buffs on VH setting. It does make a lot of Melee completely useless.

[Spell]

https://twwstats.com/kv/rules?q=very_hard&right=8463029303144685637
Very hard battle difficulty stats for AI:
+15% to MA, Charge and Melee Damage
+20% MD and Reload

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by enricofermi2:

With attack and defense, it's not a static number, but relative to what you expect to fight.

The max benifit from attack, is having 50 more attack than defense. This overlaps with charge a little bit, since charge grants attack.

So melee attack buffs for Shaggoths to get it up to 67 is good then.