So why are Grail Reliquae so bad?

[Just Terrible Gameplay]

I've watched Okoi and Legends video and kept wondering why they perform so bad even though their stats aren't bad? Between 40-50 attack, defence and strength plus 50-60 armour is pretty decent.

[kekkuli]

İlk olarak A.Pot tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

Look, it's important to recognize the limitations of Bretonnia so as to not be burdened by unreasonable expectations.

Classifying what are clearly human people as something sub-human or lesser is exactly what Adolf and his buddies would say to justify genocide or how White Europeans thought they were inherently superior to non whites or certain other European ethnicities.

You sound like some kind of Neo Nazi.

And you sound like a person that is looking to get offended by everything. Get that crap out of here.

[A.Pot]

İlk olarak kekkuli tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak A.Pot tarafından gönderildi:

Classifying what are clearly human people as something sub-human or lesser is exactly what Adolf and his buddies would say to justify genocide or how White Europeans thought they were inherently superior to non whites or certain other European ethnicities.

You sound like some kind of Neo Nazi.

And you sound like a person that is looking to get offended by everything. Get that crap out of here.

Ironic that it seems like you are taking offense to my offense.

[Mactalon]

İlk olarak A.Pot tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

Look, it's important to recognize the limitations of Bretonnia so as to not be burdened by unreasonable expectations.

Classifying what are clearly human people as something sub-human or lesser is exactly what Adolf and his buddies would say to justify genocide or how White Europeans thought they were inherently superior to non whites or certain other European ethnicities.

You sound like some kind of Neo Nazi.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/29/b5/7d29b58265add083d82c0f9a40c6af91.gif

[Hieronymous]

You are right about the dangers of such rhetoric when discussing even fictional depictions of humans. And Bretonnians do, of course, have many visual similarities with humans.

The catch, of course, is they are not human.

Lore wise the peasants have so degenerated in the Lamarkian sense that they are a new species. Likewise the nobles, twisted for millenia by the chaos magic of their God, are now super human and also a different species.

So, this is all a misunderstanding. You were right to speak out given your assumptions.

[Barser]

It is not okay just to call other people nazis left and right. Keep it civil if you think the rhetoric is wrong instead of trying to start a war in here.

[Hieronymous]

I did knowingly use ignoble rhetoric. I apologize, A.Pot, for being so incendiary and provoking a strong reaction.

I just really hate Bretonnia, deep down in my heart, and I get carried away sometimes. It's about how bad they are as a work of art, not just how bad they are in game.

Anyways, as above, grail relics are meant only for their boost to morale and aren't meant for combat at all. That Bretonnians need this morale boost is only one of many ways they are awful. That's the moral of the story.

[kekkuli]

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

I did knowingly use ignoble rhetoric. I apologize, A.Pot, for being so incendiary and provoking a strong reaction.

I just really hate Bretonnia, deep down in my heart, and I get carried away sometimes. It's about how bad they are as a work of art, not just how bad they are in game.

Anyways, as above, grail relics are meant only for their boost to morale and aren't meant for combat at all. That Bretonnians need this morale boost is only one of many ways they are awful. That's the moral of the story.

Dude you are totally free to talk sht about a fictional game faction if you want to. You got called neo nazi and now you are apologizing to the dude who did that. Hmm.

[A.Pot]

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

You are right about the dangers of such rhetoric when discussing even fictional depictions of humans. And Bretonnians do, of course, have many visual similarities with humans.

The catch, of course, is they are not human.

Lore wise the peasants have so degenerated in the Lamarkian sense that they are a new species. Likewise the nobles, twisted for millenia by the chaos magic of their God, are now super human and also a different species.

So, this is all a misunderstanding. You were right to speak out given your assumptions.

You clearly do not know Warhammer lore at all and are talking out of your ass. How about actually read it if you are going to use "lore wise" as justification. Its pretty sus as well that you seem to obsessively consider the non german humans as some kind of inferior species.

[Ardariel]

İlk olarak Xaphnir tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Ardariel tarafından gönderildi:

WEll, ok, i got numbers backwards, but it actually only adds up to my point. She have high sucess rate with big splash. That way said damage is spread thin between units and so she can end up killing noone with this strike. And no, unless it is somewhat pefect half of unit health in damage if your strike is not killing unit - your next strike would be overkill. SO you lose tempo and lose it hard. Unless amount of units you strike AND damage is same to amount of units that can strike you. And if you not kill that unit and next strike would lose against enemy MD? He would be pushed off with half health. Still being able to strike you. It is 2 rounds for enemy to strike you (depends on attackspee, but they are in most cases around same, differences mostly counts in duels or reeeeealy long fight). While on mount she is virually guaranteed to kill 2 elite units with each strike. Or about 3-4 t1-t2 units.

P.S. And yes, splitting damage against multiple units can reduce overall damage dealt. THat is pretty common knowledge in any game with damage/health and multiple enemies/shots. THere is a term for it across all games. Break Point. SO unless you achieve next breakpoint there is no reason to increase damage while reducing some other stat. It would reduce your overall damage instead of increasing it. Any economist knows that too, they have even multiple terms for different types of reduced effectiveness while supply is increased. Most known one is "diminishing returns".

I really don't think you're thinking this through.

First off, just look at it in practice: what single-entity or low model count units are good at killing infantry, in your experience? Typically ones with a higher splash count and higher MA. If your reasoning were correct, units with the lowest splash attacks would be the most effective single entities at killing infantry. They're not.

Second, you're being incredibly simplistic in your reasoning. It's not just "breakpoints, therefore killing fewer units in one hit is better than killing a bunch in 2-3." Breakpoints mean that it can be more effective to hit fewer targets, not that hitting fewer targets is always good. It depends on the damage being dealt to the target and the health of the target. Yes, if, say, hitting 3 targets instead of 5 will allow you to one shot those 3 you'd be killing 5 in two hits, that is going to be more damage output. But the opposite can also happen: hitting more targets could keep breakpoints exactly the same, where it's going to take 2 hits to kill models if you hit 3 targets or if you hit 5 targets. And in that case, hitting 5 targets is going to be a much greater increase in damage output than in the former situation.

Third, the specific battles I'm thinking of where I used Hellebron on foot and on the cauldron were primarily against Dreadspears, the models of which are getting one shot by her on the cauldron when all 5 of her splash attacks hit. Lower melee attack is nothing but detrimental in that situation.

I appreciate your honesty, but i`m afraid you missing my point. And also kinda ironic, that you suspect simplistification of my reasoning, while doing it yourself :) I`m sure it is not intentional. Anyway its not simplification, but following rule "keep it as simple as possible w/o loosing data in process". In absolut numbers it should be fine with footed hellebron. But in actual numbers you more often than not wasting damage due to splash and high MA. THats a sad reality. With exception of extreme cases.

But i start to repeat myself. Dont want to flood thread with somewhat offtopic discussin, but i defnetly like the fact, that we kept it civil even in our disagreement :) Maybe we clash again in more relevant thread.

[Umamimamer]

İlk olarak A.Pot tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

You are right about the dangers of such rhetoric when discussing even fictional depictions of humans. And Bretonnians do, of course, have many visual similarities with humans.

The catch, of course, is they are not human.

Lore wise the peasants have so degenerated in the Lamarkian sense that they are a new species. Likewise the nobles, twisted for millenia by the chaos magic of their God, are now super human and also a different species.

So, this is all a misunderstanding. You were right to speak out given your assumptions.

You clearly do not know Warhammer lore at all and are talking out of your ass. How about actually read it if you are going to use "lore wise" as justification. Its pretty sus as well that you seem to obsessively consider the non german humans as some kind of inferior species.

What the actual f*ckery

[The Warmongering Khan]

İlk olarak A.Pot tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

You are right about the dangers of such rhetoric when discussing even fictional depictions of humans. And Bretonnians do, of course, have many visual similarities with humans.

The catch, of course, is they are not human.

Lore wise the peasants have so degenerated in the Lamarkian sense that they are a new species. Likewise the nobles, twisted for millenia by the chaos magic of their God, are now super human and also a different species.

So, this is all a misunderstanding. You were right to speak out given your assumptions.

You clearly do not know Warhammer lore at all and are talking out of your ass. How about actually read it if you are going to use "lore wise" as justification. Its pretty sus as well that you seem to obsessively consider the non german humans as some kind of inferior species.

You are reading way too much into this. The guy doesn't like a fantasy faction and makes fun of a fictional people and somehow you equate this condoning genocide in real life. Just WOW!!! Remind me to never hang with you.

[Hieronymous]

The really off-putting thing is he likes Bretonnia.

The only reason to like Bretonnia is if you like the skaven, as your average Bretonnian is just 2 skaven in a trenchcoat.

And yes, that is loreful.

[kekkuli]

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

The really off-putting thing is he likes Bretonnia.

The only reason to like Bretonnia is if you like the skaven, as your average Bretonnian is just 2 skaven in a trenchcoat.

And yes, that is loreful.

I actually love bretonnia, easily one of my fav factions currently in the game. Not talking about the lore, just game.

[Mr Robert House]

Weapon strength, they don’t really have any. That’s the main thing, plus ITS A DEAD GUY BEING CARRIED BY PEASANTS

[Hieronymous]

İlk olarak kekkuli tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

The really off-putting thing is he likes

İlk olarak kekkuli tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hieronymous tarafından gönderildi:

I did knowingly use ignoble rhetoric. I apologize, A.Pot, for being so incendiary and provoking a strong reaction.

I just really hate Bretonnia, deep down in my heart, and I get carried away sometimes. It's about how bad they are as a work of art, not just how bad they are in game.

Anyways, as above, grail relics are meant only for their boost to morale and aren't meant for combat at all. That Bretonnians need this morale boost is only one of many ways they are awful. That's the moral of the story.

Dude you are totally free to talk sht about a fictional game faction if you want to. You got called neo nazi and now you are apologizing to the dude who did that. Hmm.

In hindsight I regret apogizing. This is what I get for dealing in good faith woth a Bretonnian sympathizer, who for all I know is two skaven in a trench coat.