Total War: WARHAMMER II
So why are Grail Reliquae so bad?
I've watched Okoi and Legends video and kept wondering why they perform so bad even though their stats aren't bad? Between 40-50 attack, defence and strength plus 50-60 armour is pretty decent.
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Сообщения 1630 из 48
Автор сообщения: Sn3z
i MEAN THEY are a SUPPORT UNIT only like 1-2 per army really, I can't really remember what they like tbh, I refuse to play Bretonnia until CA finish their rework but the unit would make a a lot of difference being in T2 shrine, as opening on more infantry/missile based breton army would be easier with emphasis on using shrine chain then a slow focus to move into cavalry, the grail reliquae having a higher tier transition would also make the unit more worthwhile, kind of similar to Vcounts with corspe carts and mortis.
they already have a higher tier grail reliquae with a mortis engine effect

its called the fae enchantress and double paladin
can grind down a near infinite amount of infantry and be a menace to anything large as well
They're not even supposed to be used in combat, the purpose is boosting the leadership on the relatively low leadership infantry.
Because they are support units, not actual combat units. Like Corpse Carts, keep them close to your troops while they fight, rather than directly engage the enemy.

Of course it would seem like they suck if its from a Legends of Total War video. His only real gimmick is that he exploits the AI's stupidity while playing on the hardest of difficulties which alters the stats.
Just like with a corpse wagon they are not meant for combat but for the area effect, leadership in this case.
Автор сообщения: Andrewbh2003
Автор сообщения: Sn3z
i MEAN THEY are a SUPPORT UNIT only like 1-2 per army really, I can't really remember what they like tbh, I refuse to play Bretonnia until CA finish their rework but the unit would make a a lot of difference being in T2 shrine, as opening on more infantry/missile based breton army would be easier with emphasis on using shrine chain then a slow focus to move into cavalry, the grail reliquae having a higher tier transition would also make the unit more worthwhile, kind of similar to Vcounts with corspe carts and mortis.
they already have a higher tier grail reliquae with a mortis engine effect

its called the fae enchantress and double paladin
can grind down a near infinite amount of infantry and be a menace to anything large as well

Ok but there's nothing else to shoot for in T4 or T5 in the shrine chain which would replace the unit, a reason to do this would be to strenghten the prospects of that building chain much further or CA just move the unit down. Bretonnia infantry game doesn't really go anywhere past T3, I wonder would an extra high tier support unit help scale abit better. question is how would that be packaged.
Отредактировано Sn3z; 27 мар. 2021 г. в 18:53
Автор сообщения: Ardariel
Splash amount. On mount splash is 8, while on melee it is 5.

You have that backwards, it's 8 on foot, 5 on the mount.

And not counting her against the treemen (where the very_large splash target size is very beneficial to her), I'm talking about her just in the middle of a bunch of melee infantry. Each attack of her's should be hitting more targets in addition to doing more damage when on foot, at least against infantry. And she also has a faster attack speed on foot, though maybe her attack animations favor her on the cauldron here, haven't paid that much attention to that.

As for the thing with low MA, you're failing to recognize that one shotting units is not the only way to kill one. They don't instantly regenerate all their health if an attack doesn't kill them. Splitting damage across multiple units is not going to reduce the overall damage dealt.
Отредактировано Xaphnir; 29 мар. 2021 г. в 15:10
Автор сообщения: Xaphnir
Автор сообщения: Ardariel
Splash amount. On mount splash is 8, while on melee it is 5.

You have that backwards, it's 8 on foot, 5 on the mount.

And not counting her against the treemen (where the very_large splash target size is very beneficial to her), I'm talking about her just in the middle of a bunch of melee infantry. Each attack of her's should be hitting more targets in addition to doing more damage when on foot, at least against infantry. And she also has a faster attack speed on foot, though maybe her attack animations favor her on the cauldron here, haven't paid that much attention to that.

As for the thing with low MA, you're failing to recognize that one shotting units is not the only way to kill one. They don't instantly regenerate all their health if an attack doesn't kill them. Splitting damage across multiple units is not going to reduce the overall damage dealt.

WEll, ok, i got numbers backwards, but it actually only adds up to my point. She have high sucess rate with big splash. That way said damage is spread thin between units and so she can end up killing noone with this strike. And no, unless it is somewhat pefect half of unit health in damage if your strike is not killing unit - your next strike would be overkill. SO you lose tempo and lose it hard. Unless amount of units you strike AND damage is same to amount of units that can strike you. And if you not kill that unit and next strike would lose against enemy MD? He would be pushed off with half health. Still being able to strike you. It is 2 rounds for enemy to strike you (depends on attackspee, but they are in most cases around same, differences mostly counts in duels or reeeeealy long fight). While on mount she is virually guaranteed to kill 2 elite units with each strike. Or about 3-4 t1-t2 units.

P.S. And yes, splitting damage against multiple units can reduce overall damage dealt. THat is pretty common knowledge in any game with damage/health and multiple enemies/shots. THere is a term for it across all games. Break Point. SO unless you achieve next breakpoint there is no reason to increase damage while reducing some other stat. It would reduce your overall damage instead of increasing it. Any economist knows that too, they have even multiple terms for different types of reduced effectiveness while supply is increased. Most known one is "diminishing returns".
Отредактировано Ardariel; 29 мар. 2021 г. в 15:42
The stats we see on the unit cards are not all the stats a unit has. There are important hidden stats like attack speed, animation, mass, size, etc, which aren't mentioned yet have an immense impact on unit performance. A large unit for example can have a ton of armor and melee defense but can be hit by multiple units, including from behind where melee defense is negated, and will therefore go down quickly.
Bretonnians are a degenerate evolutionary offshoot of pre-sentient mammals. You can't expect too much of their stats when gathered in low numbers. The fact that they can walk and breathe at the same time already marks them as the creme de la creme of Bretonnia "society."
Автор сообщения: Hieronymous
Bretonnians are a degenerate evolutionary offshoot of pre-sentient mammals. You can't expect too much of their stats when gathered in low numbers. The fact that they can walk and breathe at the same time already marks them as the creme de la creme of Bretonnia "society."

okay Nazi.
Автор сообщения: Ardariel
WEll, ok, i got numbers backwards, but it actually only adds up to my point. She have high sucess rate with big splash. That way said damage is spread thin between units and so she can end up killing noone with this strike. And no, unless it is somewhat pefect half of unit health in damage if your strike is not killing unit - your next strike would be overkill. SO you lose tempo and lose it hard. Unless amount of units you strike AND damage is same to amount of units that can strike you. And if you not kill that unit and next strike would lose against enemy MD? He would be pushed off with half health. Still being able to strike you. It is 2 rounds for enemy to strike you (depends on attackspee, but they are in most cases around same, differences mostly counts in duels or reeeeealy long fight). While on mount she is virually guaranteed to kill 2 elite units with each strike. Or about 3-4 t1-t2 units.

P.S. And yes, splitting damage against multiple units can reduce overall damage dealt. THat is pretty common knowledge in any game with damage/health and multiple enemies/shots. THere is a term for it across all games. Break Point. SO unless you achieve next breakpoint there is no reason to increase damage while reducing some other stat. It would reduce your overall damage instead of increasing it. Any economist knows that too, they have even multiple terms for different types of reduced effectiveness while supply is increased. Most known one is "diminishing returns".

I really don't think you're thinking this through.

First off, just look at it in practice: what single-entity or low model count units are good at killing infantry, in your experience? Typically ones with a higher splash count and higher MA. If your reasoning were correct, units with the lowest splash attacks would be the most effective single entities at killing infantry. They're not.

Second, you're being incredibly simplistic in your reasoning. It's not just "breakpoints, therefore killing fewer units in one hit is better than killing a bunch in 2-3." Breakpoints mean that it can be more effective to hit fewer targets, not that hitting fewer targets is always good. It depends on the damage being dealt to the target and the health of the target. Yes, if, say, hitting 3 targets instead of 5 will allow you to one shot those 3 you'd be killing 5 in two hits, that is going to be more damage output. But the opposite can also happen: hitting more targets could keep breakpoints exactly the same, where it's going to take 2 hits to kill models if you hit 3 targets or if you hit 5 targets. And in that case, hitting 5 targets is going to be a much greater increase in damage output than in the former situation.

Third, the specific battles I'm thinking of where I used Hellebron on foot and on the cauldron were primarily against Dreadspears, the models of which are getting one shot by her on the cauldron when all 5 of her splash attacks hit. Lower melee attack is nothing but detrimental in that situation.
The leadership boost is nice, but the real benefit is the Immune to Psychology. As long as the Reliquae is nearby, units wont be affected by fear or terror, making the frontline hold much longer, especially at the end of a battle where both sides are usually in tatters.
The leadership buff then makes it even harder to break them the regular way.
Автор сообщения: A.Pot
Автор сообщения: Hieronymous
Bretonnians are a degenerate evolutionary offshoot of pre-sentient mammals. You can't expect too much of their stats when gathered in low numbers. The fact that they can walk and breathe at the same time already marks them as the creme de la creme of Bretonnia "society."

okay Nazi.

Look, it's important to recognize the limitations of Bretonnia so as to not be burdened by unreasonable expectations.
But they are a support unit, not fighting unit. Why would you mass them? Just like corpse carts with vampire counts.
Автор сообщения: Hieronymous
Автор сообщения: A.Pot

okay Nazi.

Look, it's important to recognize the limitations of Bretonnia so as to not be burdened by unreasonable expectations.

Classifying what are clearly human people as something sub-human or lesser is exactly what Adolf and his buddies would say to justify genocide or how White Europeans thought they were inherently superior to non whites or certain other European ethnicities.

You sound like some kind of Neo Nazi.
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Дата создания: 27 мар. 2021 г. в 10:54
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