So why are Grail Reliquae so bad?

[Just Terrible Gameplay]

I've watched Okoi and Legends video and kept wondering why they perform so bad even though their stats aren't bad? Between 40-50 attack, defence and strength plus 50-60 armour is pretty decent.

[yuzhonglu]

Until you actually use them.... I dunno why, but against any infantry with armor they get chopped into pieces. They lose badly to Chaos warriors. It's better just to use peasant mobs.

But they're a very good support unit (1-2 per army) for keeping your peasant mobs running away.

[DaBo81]

You're not supposed to build memestacks of them - it's a support unit to boost peasant leadership. Remember that Legends plays on VH battle settings, which devalues all melee units. If you're playing the game on normal battle settings, they have a function. The other battle settings are not balanced; all that happens is you're railroaded into spamming ranged units.

[Hexagon]

Sadly you can't trust stats in this game or at least only to some degree. Statwise Giants should kill every unit in a few swings, in the actual battle they miss quite often because of bad animations and lack of aoe damage. And then there are units like Skaven assassins who have mediocre stats but amazing attack animations which leads to them hitting their enemies multiple times with an attack.

[Ardariel]

Single entity units with such stats are not bad. THey are VERY bad. Also their dmg number is ridiculously low aswell. Spread it on 4 units they splash... and they kiill none of them. Almost no AP saswell. So... Imagine deal 4 damage on unit that have 135 health per entity. It would take ages to kill em.

[mefungpoo]

"Single entity units with such stats are not bad. THey are VERY bad. Also their dmg number is ridiculously low aswell. Spread it on 4 units they splash... and they kiill none of them. Almost no AP saswell. So... Imagine deal 4 damage on unit that have 135 health per entity. It would take ages to kill em."

He pretty much hit the nail on the penis with this one.

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

Single entity units with such stats are not bad. THey are VERY bad. Also their dmg number is ridiculously low aswell. Spread it on 4 units they splash... and they kiill none of them. Almost no AP saswell. So... Imagine deal 4 damage on unit that have 135 health per entity. It would take ages to kill em.

Yes that's it, it's a single entity which has same combat power than 1 or 2 individuals in a 60+ figures unit ! Sure they have more hp but they can only get wrecked with such stats...
They're supposed to be 1/army for the Leadership boost, but it's not even good ...

[Eclipse]

I don’t think you need more than 1 of them,and only in peasant army. In all cav and hero armies they are useless.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by Hexagon:

Sadly you can't trust stats in this game or at least only to some degree. Statwise Giants should kill every unit in a few swings, in the actual battle they miss quite often because of bad animations and lack of aoe damage. And then there are units like Skaven assassins who have mediocre stats but amazing attack animations which leads to them hitting their enemies multiple times with an attack.

And there's also Hellebron, who, if you compare stats[twwstats.com], should be way more deadly with no mount than on her Cauldron of Blood mount. And yet in practice, she kills so much more on the Cauldron of Blood. Even had one battle against her in my Drycha campaign where she did 85000 damage on that mount against my treeman doomstack, in the only battle of that campaign where my treeman doomstack seemed threatened in the slightest with defeat.

[AkumulatoR]

Never used them. Can't think of a single reason to get one over peasant bowmen, who at least would do some damage.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Originally posted by Hexagon:

Sadly you can't trust stats in this game or at least only to some degree. Statwise Giants should kill every unit in a few swings, in the actual battle they miss quite often because of bad animations and lack of aoe damage. And then there are units like Skaven assassins who have mediocre stats but amazing attack animations which leads to them hitting their enemies multiple times with an attack.

And there's also Hellebron, who, if you compare stats[twwstats.com], should be way more deadly with no mount than on her Cauldron of Blood mount. And yet in practice, she kills so much more on the Cauldron of Blood.

Thing is, that according to stats she SHOULD be more deadly on cauldron :) You just need to read them properly.

Let me elaborate.

Check melee attack panel part. Crone on foot only have mediu m splash, while on cauldron it is large. Might not be that big of a deal if not next part.

Splash amount. On mount splash is 8, while on melee it is 5.

Now we need to recall how splash works. If between models you attack there is model with size higher, than your spalsh_size parameter - your attack damage would all go into this one model.
Damage-wise - your damage is split between all units your attack is counted on. I mean where your MA scores sucess.

Funnily enough it means, that with that LOW MA but that big splash you virtually guarantee, that you have some units being striken, while also almos tguarantee that thos units would die, as MA is low and those units that fail MD would suffer all its power. And when crone ON FOOT meet medium target ther eis still non-0 chance, that said unit score sucess on MD and wont be damaged, so this round of DMG calculation would result to 0 for crone. WHile on cauldron she do her WHOLE damage virtually every time. And less sucesses she score - the higher chance she would kill rest of uunits. WHile also apply poison to every units she strike.

I get that it is somewhat counter-intuitive (cause higher number should be good, right?) but that is math at work. In this case lower MA makes better, while also making units that sucess MD being pulled out of direct fight with crone.

So that is actually a good combination of stats. For refference - comrape it to thorgrimm[twwstats.com], who is less deadly, cause he have actually good enough MA, so his damage is distributed among all those units and he starts to suffere vs elites (as he reguallary would not hit enough to kill, as he would score sucess more often), despite having good amount of DMG and AP DMG.

P.S.

One thing to say, that on mount crone is significantly less tanky and you would feel it if you use her especially vs good combined army (with both decent infantry and ranged). ANd poison dont help her that much in this situation. But in said situation she would make most of her dmg stats too.

Anyway this is actually pretty interesting mount and at least one mroe reason to play her at some point.

P.P.S.

But what is DEFINETLY true about stats - stats in game do severely lack some addition, like that splash and splash size stats, that would change so much.

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

And there's also Hellebron, who, if you compare stats[twwstats.com], should be way more deadly with no mount than on her Cauldron of Blood mount. And yet in practice, she kills so much more on the Cauldron of Blood.

Thing is, that according to stats she SHOULD be more deadly on cauldron :) You just need to read them properly.

Let me elaborate.

Check melee attack panel part. Crone on foot only have mediu m splash, while on cauldron it is large. Might not be that big of a deal if not next part.

Splash amount. On mount splash is 8, while on melee it is 5.

Now we need to recall how splash works. If between models you attack there is model with size higher, than your spalsh_size parameter - your attack damage would all go into this one model.
Damage-wise - your damage is split between all units your attack is counted on. I mean where your MA scores sucess.

Funnily enough it means, that with that LOW MA but that big splash you virtually guarantee, that you have some units being striken, while also almos tguarantee that thos units would die, as MA is low and those units that fail MD would suffer all its power. And when crone ON FOOT meet medium target ther eis still non-0 chance, that said unit score sucess on MD and wont be damaged, so this round of DMG calculation would result to 0 for crone. WHile on cauldron she do her WHOLE damage virtually every time. And less sucesses she score - the higher chance she would kill rest of uunits. WHile also apply poison to every units she strike.

I get that it is somewhat counter-intuitive (cause higher number should be good, right?) but that is math at work. In this case lower MA makes better, while also making units that sucess MD being pulled out of direct fight with crone.

So that is actually a good combination of stats. For refference - comrape it to thorgrimm[twwstats.com], who is less deadly, cause he have actually good enough MA, so his damage is distributed among all those units and he starts to suffere vs elites (as he reguallary would not hit enough to kill, as he would score sucess more often), despite having good amount of DMG and AP DMG.

P.S.

One thing to say, that on mount crone is significantly less tanky and you would feel it if you use her especially vs good combined army (with both decent infantry and ranged). ANd poison dont help her that much in this situation. But in said situation she would make most of her dmg stats too.

Anyway this is actually pretty interesting mount and at least one mroe reason to play her at some point.

P.P.S.

But what is DEFINETLY true about stats - stats in game do severely lack some addition, like that splash and splash size stats, that would change so much.

Yes plus on a Chariot you've got more speed, more mass, and can avoid missiles and being swamped in melee and attacked from all sides. Also she got way better armor on chariot, which means less damage taken (even if she loses 20% Phy Res).

[eldiabs]

It is a dead dude being hauled around by some crazy peasants...

[SarmatII]

There are hidden stats like attack frequency, the numbers of enemy hit with attacks, etc. The unit itself is also bad hit box, they are narrow and long, which means infantry surround them easily getting more hits in.

[Empukris]

Their weapon strength is insanely low for a single entity unit. Beside you are not supposed to use them that way, peasant units has terrible leadership using grail is quite common in MP and sometime SP especially when I dont want my unit keep running all the time. It is kind of unit you only recruit once.

[Sn3z]

i MEAN THEY are a SUPPORT UNIT only like 1-2 per army really, I can't really remember what they like tbh, I refuse to play Bretonnia until CA finish their rework but the unit would make a a lot of difference being in T2 shrine, as opening on more infantry/missile based breton army would be easier with emphasis on using shrine chain then a slow focus to move into cavalry, the grail reliquae having a higher tier transition would also make the unit more worthwhile, kind of similar to Vcounts with corspe carts and mortis.