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Shakaka kaka kakakow has Total War: WARHAMMER II

(Banned) Jun 18, 2021 @ 4:44am

Why are guns so useless....

In particular the Skaven ratling guns. For some reason I can never get them to shoot unless I have literally absolutely allied model in front of them... yet when the AI's use them they can shoot however and whenever they want.... and fire at will doesn't even work half the time so even when they can shoot i need to manually target a unit. This is a problem with all guns in the game but the ratling guns are literally useless to me now. Just really sucks cause 40k>this so guns>swords

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Originally posted by Donut Steel:

OP, I don't know if you're a Total War Vet or a 'modern Total War FNG', so I'll split this post in two:

Total War Vet: You might be under the impression that gunpowder units in WH are like gunpowder units in the older games. WH was the first game since FoTS(2012) to be in a setting that has gunpowder units. In the interim period, the missile mechanics system was changed in Rome 2, which obviously didn't have guns itself and nor did Attila after it.

In this case, you might be of the impression that gun units intuitively only shoot along the front-rank line-of-sight, unless a firing-drill is active like fire-by-rank. This is an intrinsic part of the TW3 engine that was originally designed for gun-line combat in Empire(2009). This functionality is not being used for gun units in WH. You might be stretching your gun units out wide to maximise the gun-line, the number of troops firing, but this has no effect at all under the new system. Instead all ranks fire simultaneously, with the shots clipping-through the ranks in-front, within the same unit. It doesn't make any sense, but CA abandoned making anything make sense in 2013.

Modern Total War FNG: People have kept telling you that 'guns shoot straight', but this is not true at all in WH. In the TW3 engine implementation of guns, it is. In the TW3 engine gun functionality, shots travel in a straight line and leave the map, travelling in a straight line. This is not realistic as shots and bullets are actually affected by gravity(all things accelerate downwards at 9.81m/s near the surface of Earth), but it's not relevant to the experience of pre-industrial gun-line warfare as represented in Total War. In WH, the TW3 engine implementation is not used for guns; all missile infantry use the same system for shooting and representing missiles. Gun units simply have had their missile speed turned up as high as it will go under the Rome 2 system and had their arc turned down, but they still do arc and more so than any actual lead-shot or bullet would.

Whether or not gun units will attempt to shoot depends on whether the target unit(and under this new system, they will target only one enemy unit) is within the horizontal cone of fire(which is displayed) and the vertical cone(which is not). You might be under the impression that every troop in a gun unit needs a clear line-of-fire in themselves(as was the case long ago), but if a certain(but not known) percentage of the unit has line-of-fire on a target unit, the whole unit will be triggered to shoot. Each entity will shoot through other entities in the same unit, doing no friendly-fire damage. The only issue is different units of yours, which can cause 'obstruction' and the low(but not flat) firing-arcs of guns don't allow them to shoot over friendly units.

For detailed info about how the shooting mechanics work in WH, I recommend this video by Zerkovich: https://youtu.be/iLukgYOcGVQ

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Showing 1-15 of 51 comments

Shakaka kaka kakakow has Total War: WARHAMMER II

(Banned) Jun 18, 2021 @ 4:48am

absolutely **no**

Invisible

Jun 18, 2021 @ 4:53am

Have they line of sight? Even a tiny hill can obstruct gun weapons?

Other skaven unit in their line of sight?

Do you have skirmish mode on?

Barser

Jun 18, 2021 @ 4:54am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-FX-bZkEyY&ab_channel=DoomNeb

Shakaka kaka kakakow has Total War: WARHAMMER II

(Banned) Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:10am

@invisible, They cant shoot uphill at units with a clear line of sight to them either. I have tested everything and they just dont wanna work unless I completely expose them to the inevitable cavalry charge that will then ensue by throwing them off to the side. I totally get line of sight but yeah they just sit there with clear line of sight.

Shakaka kaka kakakow has Total War: WARHAMMER II

(Banned) Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:11am

Its really just annoying cause one of the many AI's cheats seems to allow them to ignore line of sight rules then.

Scr(A)tch

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:13am

Screen plz. No offense, but you must be doing it wrong.

Aleera

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:21am

Expose.. Ratling gunners .. to cavalry?

There's not a single cavalry unit ingame that can survive charging at Ratling gunners.

If it's singleplayer, have not a single friendly unit stand infront of your gunline, ever. Checker board formation. Always have your gunners on defensive stance, never on skirmish mode. And just watch them melt everything.

DomS

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:22am

So yeah , some skaven guns like warplock jezzails in particular have slightly raised elevation rules for their shooting so they can cheat out the line of sight rules slightly. You could try leaving small gaps in your lines, making your units smaller and blockier with small gaps to allow for a firing line to shoot through, and adjusting them to the sides to catch units that try to run between them. I am trying to be polite about this because the thought of someone saying firearms in this game are bad in any way when they are usually the carry unit of the army sounds delusional.

Scr(A)tch

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:27am

Originally posted by Aleera:
Expose.. Ratling gunners .. to cavalry?

There's not a single cavalry unit ingame that can survive charging at Ratling gunners.

If it's singleplayer, have not a single friendly unit stand infront of your gunline, ever. Checker board formation. Always have your gunners on defensive stance, never on skirmish mode. And just watch them melt everything.

Ratling guns can fire on cavalry even as it's engaged with Clan rats.

But yes, it's probably skirmish mode. You can disable its default activation in the settings.

Invisible

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:28am

Originally posted by Shakaka kaka kakakow:
@invisible, They cant shoot uphill at units with a clear line of sight to them either. I have tested everything and they just dont wanna work unless I completely expose them to the inevitable cavalry charge that will then ensue by throwing them off to the side. I totally get line of sight but yeah they just sit there with clear line of sight.

Sounds weird. Empire Handgunners are one of the most effective ranged units (artillery not included). I use them all the time.

Have no expirence with rattiling guns though. Maybe long reload times?

If no hills available I put them in-between the melee infantry. As Handguns have some stopping power they can make some volleys before the enemy charges into the line.

If hills available it's even easier to use. Just stand on the slope with the handgunners and put the melleline direcly in front of them down the slope. Works flawless for me.

Flanking works also great. Engage all enemy unit with you own melee. Run down the sides and shoot them in the side.

Maybe some skaven player can tell you more.

Last edited by Invisible; Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:29am

#10

Eldi

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:37am

Your game must be broken, your using then very wrong, or your missing that there IS something blocking the line of sight..

Ratlings are amazing.

#11

Kameh

Jun 18, 2021 @ 5:45am

lmao, ok OP

#12

Zane87

Jun 18, 2021 @ 6:28am

Guns useless... In this series... O.O
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Ratling Guns useless... Ö.Ö

Honestly, LoS is the downside they have for a unit type which delivers extraordinary damage very accurately (especially against stuff otherwise easily able to dodge missiles like flyers) with a ton of AP. They are very, very strong.

And Ratling Guns are honestly among the most powerful missile units in this game despite their relatively low tier. Position your army to take LoS into account, on flat ground and leave gaps in your Frontline so they can fire without being exposed. Then they shred.

Sorry OP but this is the definition of a L2P issue and that's why you get those comments here. Try the above and test then more, you will see their Worth

#13

Zane87

Jun 18, 2021 @ 6:30am

Originally posted by Shakaka kaka kakakow:
Its really just annoying cause one of the many AI's cheats seems to allow them to ignore line of sight rules then.

And this is plain wrong. AI has the same issues with those units and they can't shoot when obstructed either and that you can abuse yourself.

The issue here is not with the game, frankly.

#14