Total War: WARHAMMER II

Total War: WARHAMMER II

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Erebos Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:03am
Lore question: Undead and Chaos
For those that are knowledgeable in Warhammer Fantasy lore; is there ever any reference as to the relations between the Undead and Chaos?

I can imagine that the Vampire Counts wouldn't necessarily be big fans cause they're probably too stuck up in their own lust for power and air of nobility to accept such things as Chaos among them. However, it also seems to me like Nurgle and the undead would get along decently well, not to mention the amount of bodies provided by Khorne for the Undead cause. Has there ever been any kind of alliance between these canonically 'evil' factions to take on the 'good' factions like (High) Elves, Dwarfs and Humans?
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Erebos Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:08am 
I should mention that I do also realise that there may be some obvious conflicts of interest too, I'd imagine Khorne's skull collecting doesn't really help with resurrecting skeletons and such, and even though Nurgle likes decay and rot which the Undead use, the Undead generally stop it from growing/spreading further. Still I was wondering about any 'official' lore on the matter from Games Workshops' end, if any such exists.
cb4n28 Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:30am 
Generally speaking, when Chaos poses a significant threat, the Vampires and Necromancers tend to enter into strained alliances with the other races, not with Chaos.

The undead have a very different goal than any of the Chaos gods
A.Pot Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:30am 
They fight each other due to a conflict of interests but it depends who you are asking. The Von Carsteins want to conquer and rule over The Empire and the world while Chaos wants to destroy it. The Tomb Kings vary between world conquest or just keeping to themselves, the Vampire Coast are content to just be pirates who raid, sack and pillage the seas.

Kemmler is the only undead related character who is friendly with Chaos.
Dr. Uncredible Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:31am 
Typically, they don´t get along in the slightest, as you pointed out, the top-tier undead are all about power, independance and unchanging unlife, and while chaos offers power, it always comes with servitude and mutability.
Mid-tier undead´s souls are bound, and can as such not offer them up to the gods, and low tier undead don´thave sould at all.

Also most sentient undead lack emotions, and as such cannot offer up anything to the gods of chaos.

Furthermore it should be mentioned that Nagash, the founder of all necromancy, a being of near godlike powers himself (though dormant in this game) desires a lifeless world where only he and his own servants lead eternal unlives.

I.E. A world without souls to sell and emotions to fuel the existences of the gods, meaning Chaos wants to wipe him and his kind out as much as they want to wipe their followers out.

The End Times nonsense contained a whole bunch of nonsense, but the undead fighting alongside humanity to repel chaos, that bit makes sense.
Last edited by Dr. Uncredible; Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:32am
Erebos Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:39am 
Huh the more you know, thanks for all the answers so far!
It makes sense that eventually the end-goals of the two factions are just too far apart for them to ever really get along; also nice to see that factions are actually motivated by their own goals in this way rather than just a large and united 'bad' versus 'good' which you often see in fantasy games as well.
Jack Deth Jun 29, 2021 @ 5:49am 
The interesting thing about Undead is despite being a grouping...they tend to not be unified.

Lets start at the tippity top.

Nagash utterly hates chaos. This is the same person who, when mortal, hated his own gods, shattered the contract between his own people (the Tomb Kings) and the gods. He is all about being the one in charge and control and Chaos is an antagonist to that goal.

In the End Times he took action knowing the Chaos gods were about to make a move so decided to finish what he started and gobble up the weakened Tomb King gods in an attempt to go toe to toe with them (but suffered setbacks because the whole point of the End Times was to destroy the WFB world).

Vampires, for an example, consider themselves apex predators. They mostly carry with them same egotism of Nagash, furthermore they need blood to survive and daemons do not provide said sustenance. It would be similar to an invading force killing off all food production.

That said, during the End Times Walach Harkon did sell out him and his blood dragons to Khorne after charging headlong on the other side of a barrier that was to be setup to prevent the chaos invasion. Essentially by doing so cutting himself off from any support or retreat and thus faced with an unwinnable situation sold himself.


Tomb King, pre End Times, followed the will of their weak gods and paid as much service to Settra to not incur his wrath. Chaos is again contrary to their own existence and survival as it would mean the further dismemberment of their culture, society and rule.

Individual necromancers tend to mostly follow in suit with Nagash, their own authority and power before suffering any other beings though Heinrich Kemmler did make a pact with the chaos gods to restore his power that had waned drastically in his age, and defeats. He essentially became a double agent of sorts as time went on, with the lore reflecting that Krell followed Kemmler not because he was under his control but he was urged by Nagash to keep an eye on the rogue liche master.

The Undead in warhammer tend to follow a very Schopenhauer or Nitzschean-esque philosophy regarding Will to Power. It isn't some god or collective of people that gives one power but the individual essence and drive of the person that does.

lastly, their is the beloved Harry the Hammer who was a follower of chaos that held a strong disdain for the Undead as a whole and made his voice rather well known on the subject with lots of hammering.
JackPhoenix Jun 29, 2021 @ 9:53am 
Originally posted by Dada dadda?:
Snip

On that note: While Chaos can't corrupt undead the usual way, they can still promise a deal that would sound somewhat appealing... that's the Wallach and Settra thing from End Times. Isabella was corrupted by Nurgle, but that was down to special circumstances (she was dead when that happen, and it was more of her corpse possessed by a daemon)... and notably, Nurgle hates undead. Necromancers like Kemmler, who as a general rule are NOT undead, are just as vulnerable as anyone else.
Zeek Jun 29, 2021 @ 10:07am 
Chaos is almost always the enemy of EVERYTHING.

At best, I'd say chaos regards the undead with disinterest solely because they don't have much interest to chaos (no souls, no worshippers, etc).
JediMasterDraco Jun 29, 2021 @ 10:24am 
Originally posted by Erebos:
However, it also seems to me like Nurgle and the undead would get along decently well, not to mention the amount of bodies provided by Khorne for the Undead cause. Has there ever been any kind of alliance between these canonically 'evil' factions to take on the 'good' factions like (High) Elves, Dwarfs and Humans?
Actually, Nurgle HATES the Undead because Necromancy breaks his cycle of growth, death, and decay. As for Khorne, he hates magic so the only thing that he might favor are the Blood Dragons that reject their magical gifts.
Danny Z. Ninja Jun 29, 2021 @ 10:39am 
They're separate factions, oft opposing each other; Vampires belong to Forces of Death and Chaos belong to Forces of Chaos (so Beastmen, Daemons, Norscans, Skaven, etc).
Believe it or not, Dark Elves and Greenskins are also part of their own separate Order, the Order of Destruction.
Falaris Jun 29, 2021 @ 10:45am 
In general, chaos and vampires would be, in DnD terms, CE and LE. Both are bad guys, but they're not friends. Their goals don't really intersect; in fact they are at cross purposes.

As for in the lore, there's not much mention of it. Notably, Krell - the norscan chaos lord turned into Kemmler's best undead buddy, and Luther Harkon's crew is mostly norscans. They're chaos - he's not, and undeath again trumps allegiance to chaos.

As those examples show - as far as the vampires are concerned, chaos are good minions, not allies. And chaos, while they don't generally seek out vampires, will fight vampires, and not ally with them.

In the first 'end times' - the one where the players decided the outcome through many tournaments across the world - Chaos invaded Sylvania and basically switched to a very shambling gait afterwards.

The other end times doesn't count.
JackPhoenix Jun 29, 2021 @ 10:46am 
Originally posted by Danny Z. Ninja:
They're separate factions, oft opposing each other; Vampires belong to Forces of Death and Chaos belong to Forces of Chaos (so Beastmen, Daemons, Norscans, Skaven, etc).
Believe it or not, Dark Elves and Greenskins are also part of their own separate Order, the Order of Destruction.

That's not a thing in Warhammer.
Danielsonpl Jun 29, 2021 @ 11:39pm 
Originally posted by JackPhoenix:
Originally posted by Danny Z. Ninja:
They're separate factions, oft opposing each other; Vampires belong to Forces of Death and Chaos belong to Forces of Chaos (so Beastmen, Daemons, Norscans, Skaven, etc).
Believe it or not, Dark Elves and Greenskins are also part of their own separate Order, the Order of Destruction.

That's not a thing in Warhammer.

I'm not a specialist in that topic, but it's a thing however only in Warhammer online: age of Reckoning. It's set in its own alternate timeline/reality.

So yeah in main common Warhammer fantasy lore (so also in this game) it's not true. Orkz and dark elves don't form a faction/order together.
JackPhoenix Jun 30, 2021 @ 5:57am 
Originally posted by Danielsonpl:
I'm not a specialist in that topic, but it's a thing however only in Warhammer online: age of Reckoning. It's set in its own alternate timeline/reality.

So yeah in main common Warhammer fantasy lore (so also in this game) it's not true. Orkz and dark elves don't form a faction/order together.

Forces of Destruction in WAR also included Chaos, so even then, it does not fit. Also, no Forces of Death.

Age of Sigmar has its own Grand Alliances (Order (sigmarines & co.), Death (Nagash's minions), Destruction (orcs, ogres... ahem, Orruks, Ogors...), Chaos (as usual)), but that's also not relevant to Warhammer
Last edited by JackPhoenix; Jun 30, 2021 @ 5:58am
RomanRingOnIt Jun 30, 2021 @ 8:41am 
Originally posted by JackPhoenix:
Originally posted by Danielsonpl:
I'm not a specialist in that topic, but it's a thing however only in Warhammer online: age of Reckoning. It's set in its own alternate timeline/reality.

So yeah in main common Warhammer fantasy lore (so also in this game) it's not true. Orkz and dark elves don't form a faction/order together.

Forces of Destruction in WAR also included Chaos, so even then, it does not fit. Also, no Forces of Death.

Age of Sigmar has its own Grand Alliances (Order (sigmarines & co.), Death (Nagash's minions), Destruction (orcs, ogres... ahem, Orruks, Ogors...), Chaos (as usual)), but that's also not relevant to Warhammer
Well Im from the days when "Undead" was generic "Undead" and not this VampireCounts/Tombkings divided nonsense... and I can state for a fact that "Forces of Death" as a unified form in their own right was a thing. Nagash set a precedent for the initial conflicts between Death and Skaven, Death and Elves and ofc, Death and Chaos... Their is 100% in the Warhammer universe no relation of subservience of the Death factions to anyone else.

The ONLY faction the Undead would always oppose is Chaos regardless if it benefited them or not, though they would work WITH any of the other races if the chance arose and it benefited their endgoals.

Oh and ofc they always opposed Skaven after the Great Betrayal as since then its down they lust after warpstone which in theory is claimed by Nagash himself (all of it, on the whole world)
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Date Posted: Jun 29, 2021 @ 4:03am
Posts: 25