Do Hell Pit Abominations seem weak to anyone else?

[TimeyWimey]

From what I gather, HPA's were/are supposed to be used like quasi chariots where you put them into combat and pull them out to heal, rinse and repeat. This kinda makes sense because skaven didnt have many other options for that sorta thing at the launch of the game. But now that we have doomflayers, mutated rat ogres, and brood horrors to fill that role, its left the HPA in a position of semi irrelevance. Sure, you can still use it to fight large units, but it gets taken out quickly enough by anti large infantry and other anti large monsters that it feels like a single entity made up of skaven slaves.

What im wondering is if they should buff the HPA in a way that would make it better at anti large than they were before since there are now better options for anti infantry. Hell, they would really only need to shift numbers upwards a bit in some areas in order to make them work. They could also keep/embrace the semi squishy nature of it by making it a glass cannon of a creature that thrives on beating in the skulls of other behemoths.

They should also make THD a lot more reliable or powerful since at the moment it is quite bad for something that the monster relies on to survive a battle.

[Andrewbh2003]

the hellpit is too clunky to be used like a chariot

its animations are not very disruptive and its mass is nothing spectacular

it is first and foremost an anti-large beatstick that is also very sustainable thank to regen and passive

[cary2010haha]

are you using them against empire?

for now empire spear or knight are super powerful with "work of god"
and yes hellpit has no chance against them

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmoZYPgACyeqpVQHNMKapL75lp5T

also use poison wind unit with hellpit is super effective to everything, just dont rush it alone

[TimeyWimey]

Originally posted by Andrewbh2003:

it is first and foremost an anti-large beatstick that is also very sustainable thank to regen and passive

I get that, but unless your fighting monstrous infantry it seems to do damage slowly and is taken our fairly easily by any other anti large monster. I'd say it resembles the crabs of VC in terms of damage output when compared to other monsters of its type, but has very little in the way of staying power.

[TimeyWimey]

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

are you using them against empire?

for now empire spear or knight are super powerful with "work of god"
and yes hellpit has no chance against them

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmoZYPgACyeqpVQHNMKapL75lp5T

also use poison wind unit with hellpit is super effective to everything, just dont rush it alone

No, im actually using it against lizardmen for the most part. For whatever reason i got one in a low lvl garrison after defending against a different army in the early parts of queek's campaign. I was then attacked by kroq and his goons and i tried having it go after his stegadon and crox. However, it was terribly slow at killing the stegadon and I had to switch it over to the crox (which it had a real easy time of killing) before it got whittled down by nearby skinks.

[cary2010haha]

Originally posted by TimeyWimey:

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

are you using them against empire?

for now empire spear or knight are super powerful with "work of god"
and yes hellpit has no chance against them

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmoZYPgACyeqpVQHNMKapL75lp5T

also use poison wind unit with hellpit is super effective to everything, just dont rush it alone

No, im actually using it against lizardmen for the most part. For whatever reason i got one in a low lvl garrison after defending against a different army in the early parts of queek's campaign. I was then attacked by kroq and his goons and i tried having it go after his stegadon and crox. However, it was terribly slow at killing the stegadon and I had to switch it over to the crox (which it had a real easy time of killing) before it got whittled down by nearby skinks.

well, melee is always a bad choice in anti large, better use hellpit with poison wind/plague mage unit to deal the mobs, and build few warp lightning cannon for anti larges.

also if you play long enough as skaven, most clan dont need monsters beside clan moldue , we usually use plague mage cast clan rat summons as cannon folder and let artillery / weapon team do all the damages

[TimeyWimey]

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

well, melee is always a bad choice in anti large, better use hellpit with poison wind/plague mage unit to deal the mobs, and build few warp lightning cannon for anti larges.

also if you play long enough as skaven, most clan dont need monsters beside clan moldue , we usually use plague mage cast clan rat summons as cannon folder and let artillery / weapon team do all the damages

So your saying the best way to use HPA's is to use them as cannon fodder or not use them at all? That is both sad and an example of why they need changes.

I also find that to be disappointing considering how versatile the skaven faction as a whole is. They have decent to great options for infantry, ranged, monsters, flanking, and artillery units while most other races are missing one or two of those.

Relying solely on ranged units when there are other good options doesn't sit well with me.

[cary2010haha]

Originally posted by TimeyWimey:

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

well, melee is always a bad choice in anti large, better use hellpit with poison wind/plague mage unit to deal the mobs, and build few warp lightning cannon for anti larges.

also if you play long enough as skaven, most clan dont need monsters beside clan moldue , we usually use plague mage cast clan rat summons as cannon folder and let artillery / weapon team do all the damages

So your saying the best way to use HPA's is to use them as cannon fodder or not use them at all? That is both sad and an example of why they need changes.

I also find that to be disappointing considering how versatile the skaven faction as a whole is. They have decent to great options for infantry, ranged, monsters, flanking, and artillery units while most other races are missing one or two of those.

Relying solely on ranged units when there are other good options doesn't sit well with me.

Not cannon folder, you wont wanna lose any of these super tank in your army.

But you will need something to support it.


https://youtu.be/PFg2X14K2w4

[DeepDorkFantasy]

Abomination is just a Skaven Giant with regen

[Necrophoria]

It used to be great, but over time got outclassed by newer units, like almost every old good unit.

[TimeyWimey]

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

Not cannon folder, you wont wanna lose any of these super tank in your army.

But you will need something to support it.

https://youtu.be/PFg2X14K2w4

But aren't the top monsters in each faction (the ones with them at least) supposed to be creatures to be reckoned with all on their own? Thats how it is for the most part with dragons, hydras, RS's, RI's, mammoths, and dreadsaurians. Im not saying HPA's should be unkillable monster spankers, but they should at least be able to fair well on their own considering their price. And at the current moment they kinda get wrecked by any ranged unit and anything decent at anti large, with the exception being carnos.

[cary2010haha]

Originally posted by TimeyWimey:

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

Not cannon folder, you wont wanna lose any of these super tank in your army.

But you will need something to support it.

https://youtu.be/PFg2X14K2w4

But aren't the top monsters in each faction (the ones with them at least) supposed to be creatures to be reckoned with all on their own? Thats how it is for the most part with dragons, hydras, RS's, RI's, mammoths, and dreadsaurians. Im not saying HPA's should be unkillable monster spankers, but they should at least be able to fair well on their own considering their price. And at the current moment they kinda get wrecked by any ranged unit and anything decent at anti large, with the exception being carnos.

Actually most monster in total war got low on dps , they just not easy to get kill.

star dragon is very weak if you rush it alone too.

Monster only good if you stack 19 of it as doomstack (hellpit also can build as doomstack), but still cant compare to 18 monster with a mage.

Also will it got destroy by range unit is more about how you build its resists, like these moulder hellpit is almost imm to ranges.

https://youtu.be/CgRBwCv8ejs

[TimeyWimey]

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

Actually most monster in total war got low on dps , they just not easy to get kill.

star dragon is very weak if you rush it alone too.

Monster only good if you stack 19 of it as doomstack (hellpit also can build as doomstack), but still cant compare to 18 monster with a mage.

Also will it got destroy by range unit is more about how you build its resists, like these moulder hellpit is almost imm to ranges.

https://youtu.be/CgRBwCv8ejs

It depends on the monster. Kharbs and RS's are absolute units when it comes to fighting units of similar size. RI's, mammoths and other anti infantry ones are good at taking down units of smaller entities as long as they aren't high tier anti large. Dragons and hydras also do this well, but your also paying for the breath attack they have, which does most of their damage and sticking them into combat should only be done when the enemy is already weakened by it.

Doomstacking most end game units can end up breaking the game and we shouldn't really talk about that when considering balance since its a cheese strat meant to test the boundaries of the game.

And faction mechanics boost units to be way more effective then they were ever meant to be so counting that is also problematic.

What im trying to talk about is the state HPA is in at its base, without cheesing and without boosting by faction mechanics. And at the moment it is really lackluster for one of the skaven's most expensive units.

[Saint Sanguine]

hell pit abominations are the skaven equivalent of a tank and like all tanks they need support and all skaven things are frailer but still will fulfill there role just have to adjust for how skaven play. while more frail they do more damage like all skaven things.

what i like to do with all monster armies as clan moulder is give the hell pit abominations/single entity monsters acid musk glands, it melts anything other then single entity units so it is great for dealing with things that swarm. also like any army red line talents are very important.

keep a packmaster near them for the moral as well as the healing buff, and a pack master on foot is good in a fight and the two can support each other well. the sakven monsters all compliment/support each other well and are very powerful, they are just not a fire and forget faction.

[Torrens]

The problem I see with HPA is that it has a wide model which takes a lot of space. This means that surrounding enemy infantry can get much more troops in contact and deal damage. If you imagine a Giant for example it takes much less space around itself so it can't be surrounded by as many infantry models that deal damage. Because of this HPA melts exceptionally quickly when it gets fully surrounded by anti-large units. Also the animations aren't helping much to avoid damage unlike Jabbaslythe for example which can bounce and weave through entire armies while avoiding missile fire and getting surrounded.

[cary2010haha]

Originally posted by Torrens:

The problem I see with HPA is that it has a wide model which takes a lot of space. This means that surrounding enemy infantry can get much more troops in contact and deal damage. If you imagine a Giant for example it takes much less space around itself so it can't be surrounded by as many infantry models that deal damage. Because of this HPA melts exceptionally quickly when it gets fully surrounded by anti-large units. Also the animations aren't helping much to avoid damage unlike Jabbaslythe for example which can bounce and weave through entire armies while avoiding missile fire and getting surrounded.

But it have a hugh mass too, easy push over all mobs when its not tired yet.

Jabbaslythe die way quicker than HPA alone inside mobs and got difficult on pull out if got surrounded.