Fixing bracing in "Total war: Warhammer 2" and 3.

[Deep echo sound]

Closing ranks and preparing for impact should be meaningful. Vs small, large, anyone. Right now, charging is always better than bracing for everyone.

CA_Duck
"The mechanical balance between bracing and counter-charging is horribly skewed in favour of counter-charging."
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/3159827/#Comment_3159827



Bracing is disabled when units are in melee for 13 seconds (duration of charge bonus).

1. While bracing, unit get 20% bonus to M.D. fading over 13 seconds after engaged in melee.
Any unit of infantry and everyone who can brace will have this.
2. Unit also receives an additional anti-large bonus equal to his constant anti-large bonus, fading over 13 seconds after engaged in melee.
So this only applies to anti-large units.

This way bracing is useful for everyone (small M.D. bonus), but much more effective for bracing anti-large units to punish enemy frontal charges into spears/halberds.



Proposed improvements on moving and bracing.

1. Flags to deactivate bracing altogether - running, charging.
2. Flags to linearly fade bracing bonus over 13 seconds - when unit is engaged in melee, walking or turning.
3. Bracing bonus fully replenishes anew when the unit is standing still for 1 second after moving.

So, when trying to face flanking cav. and turning unit is not losing all it's bracing bonus, but it starts to fade.

[davidsmithpsn]

Its a decent, quick fix but really there needs to be more. My guess is CA is just testing to see how their future game 3 changes will be with a small test with us in game 2. I like it, I may give it ago.

[bozz5674]

For cav beta, Ogre Cav, while still weak to missiles and expensive, knocked my poor deckhand mob/w polearms to 1/4 health on the charge.

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by bozz5674:

For cav beta, Ogre Cav, while still weak to missiles and expensive, knocked my poor deckhand mob/w polearms to 1/4 health on the charge.

Because Ogre Cav have a ton of mass and are also speedy, they overcome the infantry brace mechanic easily and do absurd dmg.

Regular cav still suck since they removed charge bonus from collision dmg, which is now only unit mass & speed. So Grail Knights charging with their lance & high charge bonus barely scratches a braced infantry.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by valky:

remove MP altogether = problem solved. Game can then be balanced according SP.
pretty easy fix in my eyes....

edit: and thy removed matched combat in favor of performance..and you suggest a crapton of rolling done in very specific circumstances...still based on basic SQL-like table data and some calculations done in the background.
I suggest learning programming and applying for a job @CA .. have fun with that

edit2: put yourself together with the guy, who thinks a basic swordsmen in the 2nd+ row can hit targets or the whole unit can magically enhance their weapon length by 1-10 meter, so every unit in your pulk can hit like anything.

Cav are worse in SP than multiplayer by a lot. Balancing around SP wouldn't somehow make them better balanced.

Not that I agree with them (or really disagree tbh, I'm kind of neutral), but I'm pretty sure CA are capable of his suggestions considering its basically the same way charge bonus and bracing already work. Its not like they're incapable pf adding conditional bonuses. But I'll skip applying to CA because why the ♥♥♥♥ would I leave my job for a job in another country over a video game?

[MrSoul]

Originally posted by Deep echo sound:

They think about possibility.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/3163288/#Comment_3163288

But they implemented nothing. And most likely will do nothing as forums filled with agenda defenders, and not interested in general balance users.

Then go to the actual Total War Balance forums.

The BETA is garbo btw too, it looks and feels awful way they changed charging. IMO your all trying to re-invent the wheel, just start by increasing mass for player controlled cav, see how we all feel after that.

Starting by implementing arbitrary and untested ideas while being armchair critics, much like what current beta is doing, is dumb, and poor design for any work project.

[Deep echo sound]

Proposed improvements on moving and bracing.
1. Flags to deactivate bracing altogether - running, charging.
2. Flags to linearly fade bracing bonus over 13 seconds - when unit is engaged in melee, walking or turning.
3. Bracing bonus fully replenishes anew when the unit is standing still for 1 second after moving.

So, when trying to face flanking cav. and turning unit is not losing all it's bracing bonus, but it starts to fade.

[Deep echo sound]

Bracing here is the latest proposed mechanic:

"Bracing is disabled when units are in melee for 13 seconds (duration of charge bonus).

1. While bracing, unit get 20% bonus to M.D. fading over 13 seconds after engaged in melee.
Any unit of infantry and everyone who can brace will have this.
2. Unit also receives an additional anti-large bonus equal to his constant anti-large bonus, fading over 13 seconds after engaged in melee.
So this only applies to anti-large units."

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by Deep echo sound:

Bracing here is the latest proposed mechanic:

"Bracing is disabled when units are in melee for 13 seconds (duration of charge bonus).

1. While bracing, unit get 20% bonus to M.D. fading over 13 seconds after engaged in melee.
Any unit of infantry and everyone who can brace will have this.
2. Unit also receives an additional anti-large bonus equal to his constant anti-large bonus, fading over 13 seconds after engaged in melee.
So this only applies to anti-large units."

Stop it with the ridiculous suggestions.

Why the heck do you people want non-AL infantry to brace and nullify elite heavy shock cav charge? This should never happen.

If regular infantry can blunt elite cav, you reduce the need or desirability of dedicated AL infantry on the field of battle.

You're giving rock the scissors as well. No way would this lead to better game balance.

If anything we should have a greater shift between the infantry roles. Buff AL to be more devastating vs large targets. Buff dmg dealing infantry with higher anti-infantry bonuses so they can wreck AL/shielded infantry.

Give shield infantry more defense and higher missile block rate.

All 3 infantry types are more dominant in their roles, increase each type's desirability in battle.

I was watching a recent streamer test the beta patch, he charged Knight of Blazing Sun against tier 1 archers, the AI braced the archer 1s before charge impact and the charge came to a dead halt, archers took like 10% dmg from collision. The Knights had to sit in melee with them for so long to get them to rout. Ridiculous for elite shock cav with supposedly high charge bonus..

[Deep echo sound]

This is nonsense.
Bracing for 20% temporal M.D. bonus is very small vs charge bonus on heavy shock cav.

And I suggest general buffs to cavalry in return. I am pro-heavy cavalry power.


From earlier message in this topic...
"Problem of cavalry is just too small basic damage and collision damage. So as too low other stats. Cavalry need a buff all-around the board.

1. More hit points for all cav. (7%-10%).
2. More M.A. and M.D. for all heavy cav. (+2/+2).
3. More A.P. weapon strength for non-A.P. lance/halberd heavy cavalry specifically (1.5x percentage buff).
So 30% A.P. knights errant to 45%. 40% A.P. on Grail knights to 60% and so on.
And already A.P. cav. just a flat 10% overall damage increase. Like demigryph knights' weapon strength from 58 to 64."


Before making ridicules statements, read topic. Read what CA_Duck told. Problem is counter-charging with infantry is better than bracing even for anti-large units.

So the point is to make cav. stronger, way stronger, but give bracing a buff. So infantry charging heavy cavalry will be a bad trade for infantry.

[I|III||I|||II|IIII|]

this proposal completely misses the mark with everything wrong about cavalry and counter charging. What logic justifies these bonuses and what's the point?
So you give boost to the charger
then you remove boost from the charger by boosting the defender
instead you could simply remove charge bonus and avoid any extra effort in coding.
then you boost cavalry stats and decrease their vigor, so they don't snowball...
The current beta is a mess and all of this affects melee vs melee and ruins all the current balance, while contributing near nothing to the cavalry issue...

The issue with cavalry isn't their charge-damage or lack of charge-damage. It is their unit models getting stuck, not attacking, unable to cycle charge without sacrificing unit models that get stuck behind, having pathetically low stats for their costs.
I played the beta on my other account and it's horrible. Absolutely horrible and lazy design decisions. they are desperately searching for a bandage large enough to cover the broken system when the system needs surgery. Any and everyone who complains about cavalry will all claim the exact same thing: unit models die for free if you try to cycle charge. This isn't going to charge simply by swapping around charge and brace numbers. You will still trade way too much HP for match ups you should be able to dominate.

If you remove charging bonuses and brace bonuses you will come to the exact same conclusion: cavalry lose match ups that they're allegedly designed to win OR they go borderline even. The only advantage they have is being easier to keep unit models alive with buffs and heals, but the positioning of the buffer is rarely worth the risk.

Also in the beta you will see melee fights drag, it's easier to hold the front lines in bad match ups and your archers are a lot more protected. So what ends up happening is your trash spearmen take less damage, do less damage, but fulfill their role much better. When cavalry comes in you brace spears (I still charge spears, so I can lock cavalry up quicker), select a single archer unit and soon as cav engages you start shooting. cav gets decimated because they're incapable of inflicting enough damage fast enough to make any type of difference in the battle. It all comes down to cost of unit and as of right now in and out of beta most factions can't justify the cost of that unit.

[Deep echo sound]

I repeat. Problem is infantry getting too high damage from charging into cavalry.

The point is to make bracing with infantry a better tactic. Now, it is always better to charge a cavalry.
And the only infantry that would be better after this change is anti-large infantry that is standing still.
The whole point of that video and all this drama was about charging. Charging with infantry into cavalry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M69iEfK-2Lc

Also, the whole patch for collision changes was meant to nerf cycle-charging. 2 seconds timer is too much. But you do not understand their basic goal.
C.A. wants to nerf cycle-charging.
They want the exact opposite of what you want.

Last point, if you actually read carefully discussions, people do not want to nerf infantry charge bonus because that would nerf infantry vs infantry, vs range and other matchups.

So the points that cavalry balance is going to achieve is making cavalry better, and also making charging for infantry worse that bracing without actually reducing charge bonus.
And not making cav. cycle-charging too strong. That is what C.A. doing.
How hard is that to understand???

For the thousands time, I just do not see how people can't read. Or can't reason basic logic.

[Deep echo sound]

To be clear, I fully support making cavalry capable of escaping some infantry units after charge more easily.

In this topic, I proposed changes for this.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/594570/discussions/0/5167301764852678583/

#4. There.
4. Collision timer should be set to 0.5 seconds from 2 seconds now. Originally changed from 0.1 seconds to 2 seconds, C.A. increased infantry resistance to knocking in some cases by 20 times!

That is the main problem of cavalry getting stuck. And C.A. just do not want to change that.
That is the problem! C.A. just do not want to change that 2 seconds collision immunity timer, that is why cavalry and other units are so stupidly trapped even when they should not be.

[I|III||I|||II|IIII|]

Originally posted by Deep echo sound:

For the thousands time, I just do not see how people can't read. Or can't reason basic logic.

Give 40MD units 48MD when braced. This will help cavalry. Said: nobody, ever... Insert 2000 words trying to justify your logic. Your entire proposal revolves buffing infantry. Buffing INFANTRY will help CAVALRY. Yes, that's it, we must change infantry to make cavalry better. wtf?

I'm not going to subscribe to your logic that infantry charging into cavalry is the problem. The actual problem is cavalry sucks and everything about them sucks. the upkeep, cost, tech upgrade options, tech upgrade paths, buildings they're recruited from, etc... they are just a bad unit by design. Sure in multi it's not as bad, but on campaign you'll be hard pressed to justify building cavalry buildings with a lot of factions even if you buff the units. You would need to buff them above other units, not just make them viable, but BETTER or buff the buildings because it's taking up another building slot. I could go on and on about this issue, but it's honestly not worth it because I've seen many great ideas go ignored by CA and then I play their beta patch to address cav units and it's abundantly clear whoever is shot calling these changes is clueless and it's even clearer they didn't bother playing their own beta because it's a joke of an update. Maybe I'm wrong and the people working on it just simply have no idea how to use cav units... C-

[Deep echo sound]

Another problem some do not understand at all.
C.A. always and only balances units for M.P. More so, sometimes for tournament level play. So high A.P.M. players. Who clicks like crazy. They make few cavalry units work fine. But average player in campaign will never do. Especially with 20 cav. units in army to micro simultaneously.

I repeat for the most smart ones who are so smart that do not understand the truth even after 100+ times repeated.
C.A. do not give a crap about campaign players. For balancing, they only care about M.P. and few thousands that play it.

[Deep echo sound]

Oh, by the way, yea. Buffing bracing will help cavalry. I know it is hard for the most gifted...
But when stationary infantry has better stats, you can give cavalry even better stats to overcompensate, so they trade favorably still. And thus will have even higher advantages in other situations and vs other enemies.

Once more. For the most gifted ones. C.A. thinks that cavalry is mostly fine.
Because M.P. players tell them so. There is a lobby of A.P.M. abusers who want micro to be the main factor of victory. And C.A. listens to them, not to their main player base, campaign players.

So if you want to buff something, you need bargaining power.
Or, else, C.A. will just ignore millions of campaign players because they do not care at all. Like they did for years.