Let's discuss Race & Faction rankings. (Macro & Micro)

[zeeb]

I know there's 100 different threads all over the internet about this, from Steam to the TW forums to Reddit and Youtube.

But let's break it down into two categories; Macro and Micro.
(Endgame Economy VS Unit Power)

When making a decision, let's ignore the AI and pretend every race and faction that exists will be played by the best player in the world, a player who are able to utilize said race and faction to the best of its abilities and truly push it to the limit.

Let us also ignore early and midgame, only focusing on endgame.

##### MACRO #####
So, I know a lot of people like the High Elves for strongest Macro.
However I read a post in a thread recently that brought up a good point; If the High Elves economy is based on trade, that means they get weaker as the game progress, due to a decline in trade partners etc.
In regard to the High Elves trade gradually dropping off, other races such as Dark Elves with their slave economy should take this spot. Slave economy for example gets progressively stronger the longer the game is played.

Or perhaps other races, such as Tomb Kings/Norsca that allegedly has no upkeep cost.
Even Dwarfs and the Vampires (Both) have been mentioned.
(I've never played any of them so I wouldn't know)

The ability to supply your armies, keep creating doomstacks and amass an infinite force, so to speak. The race and faction that does this the best, is the top dog of macro.

##### MICRO #####
Now, let's get to Micro, the power on the battle field.

A lot of people enjoys the High Elves/Dark Elves here as well, due to a very balanced roster with great units across the board.

Vampire Coast is also frequently mentioned and rightfully so, due to their style of having Necrofexes that severely weakens armies before they can reach them then having a strong blockade that will let their missile units go to town and finish the enemy off.

Even Skaven has been mentioned, due to their Stalk stance that supposedly gets buffed by Ambush Chance, which is extremely powerful since they start so close and can attack from all sides. Also having access to a nuke is a huge plus. But with proper micro from the enemy the nuke might not be so viable, unless the Skaven can somehow lock several units in proximity in place. So let's act on the basis in this example that the Skaven player will succeed.

----------

So, which race and faction do you think is best at the Macro game and which do you think is the best at the micro game?

If possible, make a Top 5 while also stating why you believe each of your picks to deserve the spot they're put in.

This way I believe new players that are competitive will have an easier time finding races and factions that they would like to invest their time into.

Who knows, developers might even be lurking around here and could take notes on future patches, bringing those races and factions not mentioned higher up to keep the game interesting on a competitive level.

The races and factions are just examples that I brought up that I've found have been mentioned in several threads in similar topics. I am still too unfamiliar with the game to have an actual opinion on the macro and micro powers of each race and faction. So I will not vote or have a Top 5 of my own.


Cheers!

[Barser]

Well all races are easy later on when you are established.
But some are more easy at the start of the campaign because of location and faction effect.

But yes some factions like Norsca can get pretty much free upkeep armies as long as they are raiding later on, and tomb kings can keep pumping out free upkeep armies, as the game goes on.

But after reading all of this, I am still somewhat confused about what micro/micro means here.

[zeeb]

Macro is economy. The faction that can ultimately gain the strongest economy is the best macro faction. Since that means they will have an edge in creating armies when the game reaches its peak, that is the endgame where the game will be decided.

Micro is unit power. The faction that has overall stronger units and a higher percentage chance to win than the other factions with their most efficient build against an enemy that has an equally efficient build. This means that faction has the highest battle power and is the most likely to win in an endgame max stack fight. 20 vs 20, all in, with magic etc.

Let's take SC2 as an example; Macro is how well you can build your economy and Micro is how well your units will perform and how you utilize them to maximum efficiency.

Now it's slightly different in this one, since you can't control a single unit, but rather an army stack. However, it's pretty much the same since we have unit types such as infantry, archers and cavalry etc. Which is like rock, paper & scissors. Same as in SC2.

In a nutshell, the faction that can produce armies until their enemies runs out of money wins the macro game and the faction that have the highest chance to win any encounter wins the micro game.

In the end, macro is more important than micro, but its fun to play a good micro faction.

[yojimbo1111]

My Top 5(combined scores, no particular order):
Betonnia - ze lady!
HE - perfect basic units, best archers in the game, great lords and monsters, economy with crazy growth potential
Skaven - boom boom yes yes (EZ mode)
Lizards - big dinosaurs, get lots of money from fighting
DE - t1 AP missiles, good lords, good economy

Looking at this list I assume it's everyone's top 5

brets get the best units in the game (hippogyph knights and blessed trebuchets) and don't have an increasing army upkeep cost and have high yield economy buildings so income can outpace upkeep as you conquer more land and build more armies

[zeeb]

Just for discussion; how is Bretonnia's macro stronger than Dark Elves for example, same goes for micro. How does Bretonnia compare to Dark Elves slave economy? Also in which way are Bretonnia's endgame units stronger than Dark Elves.
Considering max tiered units with magic support etc.

I took them into comparison since they were first and last on the list.

[yuzhonglu]

Macro (early game):

1. Bretonnia. No supply lines. Powerful income generating buidlings. 'Nuff said.
2. Dark Elves. Slave income is a big bonus even from the get go.
3. Skaven. 'Cuz ALL their buildings generate cash.
4. Empire. 'Cuz their industry buildings are the best in the game.

Macro (late game):

1. High Elves. Entrepeneur spam. Takes a while to get going, but once it does it beats everything else.

2. Dark Elves. Late game slave income outstrips Bretonnia farm income, even accounting for the "no supply lines" bonus Bretonnia gets.

3. Tomb Kings. Free units. 'Nuff said. Late game they can easily be running around with 13+ armies of tier 3-5 constructs and ushibati. All of which are completely expendable.

4. Bretonnia. No supply lines remains a potent bonus even in late game.

5. Vampire Counts! Free skelly upkeep means they can spam more armies than the Tomb Kings, but obviously of lower quality. Also, their tier 4 and 5 income buildings are no joke as they provide both income and heroes for hero spam.

[yuzhonglu]

Originally posted by zeeb:

Just for discussion; how is Bretonnia's macro stronger than Dark Elves for example, same goes for micro. How does Bretonnia compare to Dark Elves slave economy? Also in which way are Bretonnia's endgame units stronger than Dark Elves.
Considering max tiered units with magic support etc.

I took them into comparison since they were first and last on the list.

Macro needs to be split between early and late game. Bretonnia has better early game macro. Dark Elves have better late game marcro.

[Darth Wadewilson]

As the game progresses any factions that get a huge amount of income from battles, sacking etc tend to accumulate a lot of money. But dark elves have additional mechanic of slaves, that grows exponentially with the number of battles, to benefit from too. They can generate mountains of gold irrespective of whether they are conquering the world or not. So I would put them as #1 economically.

When it comes to military strength it's all down to our preferences and playstyle.

I would again rank DE #1. They got one of the strongest rosters in the game with solid units across tiers. Amazing monsters. Stupidly powerful black arks. Units like shades and hydras deserve special mention.

[zeeb]

I see.
However, personally I don't see why early and midgame should matter.
Sure the enemy will have an advantage, but if you have proxy nations inbetween that acts as a buffer you won't get attacked and I believe the faction that can churn out most units during the final state and can keep creating troops until the enemy runs out of money ultimately wins the race.

But Bretonnia sounds very promising indeed, I also read that High Elves was very dependant on trade, but if they're not and can generate more money than the other factions then it should be on top.

Anyway, good list and good reasons. Keep it up!

[yuzhonglu]

Micro:

1. Isabella (Vampire Counts, but Isabella specifically). Nothing beats those starting vampires in Isabella's army, one of which is a Shadow mage. Those two heroes and Isabella by themselves destroy most 40-stacks with no problem. And they level fast, given your starting location.

2. Sisters of Twilight hawk rider armies. Comes at tier 2. Destroys everything.

3. Alarielle (High Elves). Sisters of Avelorn spam. Comes at tier 3 and -1 recruitment time.

[zeeb]

Originally posted by Darth Reyns:

But dark elves have additional mechanic of slaves, that grows exponentially with the number of battles, to benefit from too. They can generate mountains of gold irrespective of whether they are conquering the world or not. So I would put them as #1 economically.

Sounds like a dominant macro force for sure.

Originally posted by Darth Reyns:

When it comes to military strength it's all down to our preferences and playstyle.

100%, but having an edge is always welcomed.

Originally posted by Darth Reyns:

I would again rank DE #1. They got one of the strongest rosters in the game with solid units across tiers. Amazing monsters. Stupidly powerful black arks. Units like shades and hydras deserve special mention.

Sounds very viable.

Good stuff.

[zeeb]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

1. Isabella (Vampire Counts, but Isabella specifically). Nothing beats those starting vampires in Isabella's army, one of which is a Shadow mage. Those two heroes and Isabella by themselves destroy 40-stacks with no problem.

Yeah that sounds extremely powerful for the low upkeep cost.

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

2. Sisters of Twilight hawk rider armies. Comes at tier 2. Destroys everything.

What about the Waywatchers? I always tought that with them getting +75% Ammo from Sisters skills and tech upgrades that they'll decimate almost anything. But then again they can get crushed by an equally large cavalry force, so I guess that is why the Hawk Rider's take the cake?

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

3. Alarielle (High Elves). Sisters of Avelorn spam. Comes at tier 3 and -1 recruitment time.

Sisters of Avelorn, how do they fare against Waywatchers? Isn't Waywatchers ultimately stronger after skills and tech upgrades? (I think items are too unreliable to consider)

In any case, going by your list then Isabella can take on Sisters of Twilight Hawk Rider combo and Sisters of Twilight Hawk Rider combo can take on Alarielle's Sisters of Avelorn. More or less?

[yuzhonglu]

Originally posted by zeeb:

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

1. Isabella (Vampire Counts, but Isabella specifically). Nothing beats those starting vampires in Isabella's army, one of which is a Shadow mage. Those two heroes and Isabella by themselves destroy 40-stacks with no problem.

Yeah that sounds extremely powerful for the low upkeep cost.

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

2. Sisters of Twilight hawk rider armies. Comes at tier 2. Destroys everything.

What about the Waywatchers? I always tought that with them getting +75% Ammo from Sisters skills and tech upgrades that they'll decimate almost anything. But then again they can get crushed by an equally large cavalry force, so I guess that is why the Hawk Rider's take the cake?

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

3. Alarielle (High Elves). Sisters of Avelorn spam. Comes at tier 3 and -1 recruitment time.

Sisters of Avelorn, how do they fare against Waywatchers? Isn't Waywatchers ultimately stronger after skills and tech upgrades? (I think items are too unreliable to consider)

Way Watchers are tier 4, don't fly, and are useless when they run out of ammo. Also, more expensive and requires more upkeep, and is vulnerable to cav heavy armies. Flying cav is incredibly powerful in this game since you can pick and choose when to engage.

Sisters at tier 3 are better than Waywatchers. It's not even close. Sisters shoot faster and do more damage. Skirmish units are always outclassed in raw damage output by equivalent tier archer units.

[zeeb]

Ah I see, good stuff. Thanks for your inputs!

So it seems to be a good idea to play Vlad von Carstein, then immediately get Isabella so she can level up her two vamps. Vampire Counts is also one of those races I see high on different tier lists. But no idea how good their macro is though, might not matter with the Isabella tactic however.

Though I wonder how Isabella with her vampires will fare against let's say Vampire Coast Necrofex bombardment or Skaven's Warplightning Cannons.

[elkapp]

Pretending we are talking about Legendary or VH campaigns.

Best macro:

• High Elves. I don't think i need to explain it. Can touch economy, PO, growth, relations. Best LLs overall. there's not much to say about them.
  
• Dark Elves. Same as HE but they only got the money. The good thing about them is that they can start a slave economy before HE can start an entrepeneur economy, but don't have all the other tools that make HE so powerful.
  
• Bretonnia. I don't even play them much, but i can perfectly understand the effects of the lack of supply lines.
  
• Dwarfs. Imo the strongest race that can't touch it's economy since their buildings give a lot.
  
• Vampire Counts. That's another i don't play often because i don't like it, but with the free skeleton ♥♥♥♥ they become like a poor Bretonnia. Bretonnia because you basically only pay for the lords and heroes, Poor because, while Bretonnia can get hippogryph knights, VC only have skeletons and characters so they need to adopt a specific playstyle or they'll lose any battle.

Best micro:

(excluding WE, BM, CW because i don't have their DLCs)
(also excluding anything that's hard to get like hero only armies or the shadowdart DE lord)

• Lizardmen. Great monsters + life magic. Their only problem is that they make no cash but outside that their armies are strong af.
  
• Norsca. The only reason they're still playable in the game is that the mammoth stack is op. I'd say mammoths > stegadons, but the lack of life magic will get Norsca only the second place.
  
• Skaven. Even if we exclude ambush a good skryre stack can decimate multiple armies. Their main problem is that terrain counts a lot, and even if you're good at positioning (which you need to be) not always you can use them effectively.
  
• High Elves. Specifically the star dragon stack, and the reason why is below the skryre stack is that dragons attack in a "weird" way and their breaths can get 100 kills on high tier infantry as well as 10. And in AR land units tend to get killed a lot.
  
• Dwarfs. Here i was not sure since there are many other good armies (DE shades, Empire's steam tank, ...). Also, the army i'm refering to is a combination of some lords and heroes (with at least 1 engineer), ironbreakers, irondrakes, thunderers and organ guns (with maybe 1 or 2 gyrocopter). The good thing about this army is that 1) all your units and even ranged tank a lot, 2) you deal both huge ammount of aoe and concentrated damage, 3) is just easy af ♥♥♥♥ to use. The only thing this army is not good against is the Empire, since they have hellstorm rocket batteries that destroy infantry at 400 range and you can't kill it with gyros because of handgunners. For anything else you should be ok.
  
  
  
  

  Originally posted by zeeb:

  Who knows, developers might even be lurking around here and could take notes on future patches, bringing those races and factions not mentioned higher up to keep the game interesting on a competitive level.

  https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PrYIIQyeTMg/hqdefault.jpg
  It's more probable for CA to implement naval battles than read some post here.
  Quick way of how it works: everything besides reddit don't get even a sight of the devs; a subreddit which, just to inform you, tend to "dismiss" any critique of the game. Even if you see in the subreddit a 5k upvote post that cry about something, chances are the devs still won't do a ♥♥♥♥ about it. They'll start taking the problem in consideration only if there are multiple posts on the subject and many people cry about it. If also the problem can be fixed easily then there's a good probability that CA will fix it in the next update (which can as well be in April); otherwise we're back at where we started.
  
  
  Also, a couple of extra things.
  
  First: the power of a race is usually better decided taking in consideration the battle and the army together, since what can happen is that a faction have a lot of good units, but can't pay for them, so they're forced to use worse units.
  
  Second: forcing HE to have a trade based economy is insane. Trade right now is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ garbage and pays cents. Also, you need a trade partner, and while HE can in some way get one by force using influence, you still have the problem that the smaller the trade partner is the less money you make. Personally i find complete ♥♥♥♥ that you can't use trading resource internally for something (you should imo have a reason to get those resource buildings even when you have 1/4 of the map). You can make a point about revamping the HE economy, but trade economy bro is the exact thing you want to avoid.

[Darth Wadewilson]

Originally posted by zeeb:

Sisters of Avelorn, how do they fare against Waywatchers? Isn't Waywatchers ultimately stronger after skills and tech upgrades? (I think items are too unreliable to consider)

Considering we are going for 19x one unit cheesestacks.

Waywatchers can run and shoot, have stalk and can shoot in any direction. So they are perfect for ambush and routing the enemy in minutes. But you still need other units to mop up in melee. Coz waywatchers will take unnecessary losses while cleaning up.

Sisters are good in melee so they can finish off the enemy without taking in losses after the skirmish. Plus Alarielle buffs them in melee even more. So in a normal battle a 19 sisters + Alarielle will kill off the enemy with less casualties than waywatchers doomstack.