Permanent low reliability?

[Queen of Hearts]

I could use some help figuring this out. I'm playing Tyrion and around turn 65 i broke a military allience with Calador, but now its turn 87 and my reliability is still very low. i haven't made or broken any other agreements since then so I'm confused as to why its taken so long. Could it be a bug? Normally its only like 10 turns before it starts going back up.

[Zane87]

Not a bug, depending on how severe the breaking was it can take a long time. Like really a long time.
Did you also do more than just breaking the MA prematurely, like declaring war on them at the same time/too soon?

Also note that making peace too fast (before 10 turns after you declared war) also lowers reliability.

[Queen of Hearts]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Not a bug, depending on how severe the breaking was it can take a long time. Like really a long time.
Did you also do more than just breaking the MA prematurely, like declaring war on them at the same time/too soon?

Also note that making peace too fast (before 10 turns after you declared war) also lowers reliability.

So heres the full context of what i did. I had a MA with Tor Yvresse and Calador and Calador declared war on Yvresse and i sided with Yvresse and then Calador was wiped out the next turn. That is as much of the situation as i can remember

[Zane87]

So you basically broke the MA (assuming it's older than 10 turns that's cool), a NAP (that one is a reliability hit cause instantly after breaking alliance) and declared war (also reliability hit).

I can look up the game files later and tell you exactly how much that will cost you ^^ will prob reply in half an hour or something, still in bed delaying the inevitable waking up in the morning xD

[Queen of Hearts]

Originally posted by Zane87:

So you basically broke the MA (assuming it's older than 10 turns that's cool), a NAP (that one is a reliability hit cause instantly after breaking alliance) and declared war (also reliability hit).

I can look up the game files later and tell you exactly how much that will cost you ^^ will prob reply in half an hour or something, still in bed delaying the inevitable waking up in the morning xD

Lol been there. But yea if you can help me figure this out. I'm almost to round 100 now and theres no sign of it changing

[Zane87]

Took a bit longer but here it is. The reliability hit is handled in 2 databases
data.pack/db/cai_diplomacy_simple_treacheries_tables and cai_diplomacy_complex_treacheries_tables

We also need both, from simple treacheries you will get a 15 reliability hit from not joining the war of one ally (obviously). You also get a 25 hit for "Military_alliance_broken to War" (and a potentially additional hit of up to 10 if the MA was signed within 10 turns).

Which means, you will have a reliability hit from 40-50 from that ^^ There are afaik no real pointers as of how many of those "points" you recover each turn but it is a very safe bet that it is 1. Thus, this will tank your reliability for 40-50 turns ^^

Yeah, that sucks xD

[Darth Wadewilson]

Reason I never do military alliances. AI makes dumb war declarations. NAP is the best way fwd.

[Queen of Hearts]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, and thats just from joining war on side of ally lol. Ok good point no more MAs

[Ardariel]

In one campaing of mine i had "low reliability" for about 80 turns.

How much you lose in reliability depends on several factors. Including:

• If there were less than 10 turns before you broke the treaty you sighned.
  
• type of treaty
  
• likability of faction you broke treaty with

And last one of the list is most severe. Also, if someone sided with that faction - another sets of penalties applied. And they all stack up.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

In one campaing of mine i had "low reliability" for about 80 turns.

How much you lose in reliability depends on several factors. Including:

• If there were less than 10 turns before you broke the treaty you sighned.
  
• type of treaty
  
• likability of faction you broke treaty with

And last one of the list is most severe. Also, if someone sided with that faction - another sets of penalties applied. And they all stack up.

The last point is not the most severe, it has no impact at all.
I posted that before, the only parts that influence reliability loss are from the 2 tables mentioned earlier. For completeness, here in full:

Simple treacheries, action and reliability loss in points:
ALLY_REFUSED_TO_JOIN_WAR 15
BATTLE_ALLY_SUPPORT_REFUSED 4
HOSTILE_AGENT_ACTION_TOWARDS_ALLY 4

Complex treacheries, from state 1 to state 2, turn difference during which that matters (always 10) and reliability loss in points:
CLIENT_STATE CLIENT_STATE_BROKEN 10 15
CLIENT_STATE_BROKEN WAR 10 15
DEFENSIVE_ALLIANCE DEFENSIVE_ALLIANCE_BROKEN 10 10
DEFENSIVE_ALLIANCE_BROKEN WAR 10 25
MILITARY_ACCESS MILITARY_ACCESS_BROKEN 10 10
MILITARY_ACCESS_BROKEN WAR 10 15
MILITARY_ALLIANCE MILITARY_ALLIANCE_BROKEN 10 10
MILITARY_ALLIANCE_BROKEN WAR 10 25
NON_AGGRESSION_PACT NON_AGGRESSION_PACT_BROKEN 10 10
NON_AGGRESSION_PACT_BROKEN WAR 10 15
PEACE WAR 10 30
STATE_GIFT_ACCEPTED WAR 10 10
TRADE_AGREEMENT TRADE_AGREEMENT_BROKEN 10 10
TRADE_AGREEMENT_BROKEN WAR 10 15
VASSALAGE VASSALAGE_BROKEN 10 15
VASSALAGE_BROKEN WAR 10 25
VASSALAGE_FORCED VASSALAGE_BROKEN 10 15
WAR PEACE 10 15

Therefore, the only 2 non-treaty related reliability losses occur when you are not helping an ally in a joint battle or when you use agents against an ally.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Originally posted by Ardariel:

In one campaing of mine i had "low reliability" for about 80 turns.

How much you lose in reliability depends on several factors. Including:

• If there were less than 10 turns before you broke the treaty you sighned.
  
• type of treaty
  
• likability of faction you broke treaty with

And last one of the list is most severe. Also, if someone sided with that faction - another sets of penalties applied. And they all stack up.

The last point is not the most severe, it has no impact at all.
I posted that before, the only parts that influence reliability loss are from the 2 tables mentioned earlier. For completeness, here in full:

Simple treacheries, action and reliability loss in points:
ALLY_REFUSED_TO_JOIN_WAR 15
BATTLE_ALLY_SUPPORT_REFUSED 4
HOSTILE_AGENT_ACTION_TOWARDS_ALLY 4

Complex treacheries, from state 1 to state 2, turn difference during which that matters (always 10) and reliability loss in points:
CLIENT_STATE CLIENT_STATE_BROKEN 10 15
CLIENT_STATE_BROKEN WAR 10 15
DEFENSIVE_ALLIANCE DEFENSIVE_ALLIANCE_BROKEN 10 10
DEFENSIVE_ALLIANCE_BROKEN WAR 10 25
MILITARY_ACCESS MILITARY_ACCESS_BROKEN 10 10
MILITARY_ACCESS_BROKEN WAR 10 15
MILITARY_ALLIANCE MILITARY_ALLIANCE_BROKEN 10 10
MILITARY_ALLIANCE_BROKEN WAR 10 25
NON_AGGRESSION_PACT NON_AGGRESSION_PACT_BROKEN 10 10
NON_AGGRESSION_PACT_BROKEN WAR 10 15
PEACE WAR 10 30
STATE_GIFT_ACCEPTED WAR 10 10
TRADE_AGREEMENT TRADE_AGREEMENT_BROKEN 10 10
TRADE_AGREEMENT_BROKEN WAR 10 15
VASSALAGE VASSALAGE_BROKEN 10 15
VASSALAGE_BROKEN WAR 10 25
VASSALAGE_FORCED VASSALAGE_BROKEN 10 15
WAR PEACE 10 15

Therefore, the only 2 non-treaty related reliability losses occur when you are not helping an ally in a joint battle or when you use agents against an ally.

THen there is no reason for 80 turn low reliability. BUt it happened.

So i have your explanation and one i found on TW forums.

One i found on TW forums explains 80 turn reliability loss and works consistently.
One you offer does not.

So... i choose to use explanation that works.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

THen there is no reason for 80 turn low reliability. BUt it happened.

So i have your explanation and one i found on TW forums.

One i found on TW forums explains 80 turn reliability loss and works consistently.
One you offer does not.

So... i choose to use explanation that works.

It adds up and if you commit more reliability hits during that time it takes longer.
Especially if you did something you were not aware of tanking your reliability.
I offer the game files. Show me the link to the TW forums so I can judge myself. I gave you an alternative explanation of: you just made things worse without noticing. Works as well.

Besides, I see enough anecdotal evidence which turns out to be just some other things going on that I rather trust the facts I can verify (game files, you can verify yourself, I gave you all the information you need to open the pack file and look it up yourself) than a "dude trust me".

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Originally posted by Ardariel:

THen there is no reason for 80 turn low reliability. BUt it happened.

So i have your explanation and one i found on TW forums.

One i found on TW forums explains 80 turn reliability loss and works consistently.
One you offer does not.

So... i choose to use explanation that works.

It adds up and if you commit more reliability hits during that time it takes longer.
Especially if you did something you were not aware of tanking your reliability.
I offer the game files. Show me the link to the TW forums so I can judge myself. I gave you an alternative explanation of: you just made things worse without noticing. Works as well.

Besides, I see enough anecdotal evidence which turns out to be just some other things going on that I rather trust the facts I can verify (game files, you can verify yourself, I gave you all the information you need to open the pack file and look it up yourself) than a "dude trust me".

I broke one treaty. One. No aliances. No other factions were invloved. I broke it in less than 10 turns and negotiated peace in less than 10 turns. SO 2 negative factors to add up according to table you provided (whic is accurate, AFAIK). So. Either there ARE other factors in play, or this is just so lucky bug to appear to prove some other random person on internet right.

[Darth Wadewilson]

Originally posted by Broken Butterfly:

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, and thats just from joining war on side of ally lol. Ok good point no more MAs

There is a mod called unbreakable alliances or something like that. It lets you decline war declarations from allies without breaking the alliance.

[zefyris]

What Zane listed is not only interesting (first time I see the actual numbers) but also fits what I 've seen ingame through my 2,000 hours of play, so he's definitely in the right. Most peoples who stay low in reputation without understanding why have repeatedly done thing they shouldn't and just do'nt realize it.
"I broke one treaty" like, which one? how long ago were they signed? what were the circumstances? Cause you can loss a ton of points in that list depending of that.


I knew agent action against Ally (or les than 10 turns after becoming former allies) was lowering the reliability since I experienced it first hand, but I didn't know how much it was compared to treaty breaching. That's actually quite a lot.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

Originally posted by Zane87:

It adds up and if you commit more reliability hits during that time it takes longer.
Especially if you did something you were not aware of tanking your reliability.
I offer the game files. Show me the link to the TW forums so I can judge myself. I gave you an alternative explanation of: you just made things worse without noticing. Works as well.

Besides, I see enough anecdotal evidence which turns out to be just some other things going on that I rather trust the facts I can verify (game files, you can verify yourself, I gave you all the information you need to open the pack file and look it up yourself) than a "dude trust me".

I broke one treaty. One. No aliances. No other factions were invloved. I broke it in less than 10 turns and negotiated peace in less than 10 turns. SO 2 negative factors to add up according to table you provided (whic is accurate, AFAIK). So. Either there ARE other factors in play, or this is just so lucky bug to appear to prove some other random person on internet right.

Or you did things that hit reliability you were not noticing, as I explained.

Please, again, give me the link to that TW forum post, let me be able to judge myself.

And sorry, I know I come off like a ♥♥♥♥ here but anecdotal evidence isn't going to cut it for me. Cause honestly, over 80 turns there is bound to happen a few things that will tank your reliability.

There are enough misinformations already, I certainly don't know all and there is a very fair chance that another table handles what you describe, but to validate that view ingame files (where we could see a ton internal workings actually, only few things are hardcoded) I need to judge what according to your post is going on in detail and how that other person came to his conclusion. So, give me the link.