So ya know how Necromancers raise the dead?

[grunk]

Why can't we get zombies of non-human factions? Would it really be that hard to allow the people literally known for desecrating graves to get some rat, lizard, or orc corpses? Maybe scale down how many models the unit has to balance it out so it isn't just 19 zombie black orcs; Even doing what they did with throts unstable units and have them not replenish hp. I think that would spice up vampire counts and imo it doesn't make sense for vc to not be able to do this already.
Thought?

[Gorwe]

Цитата допису Rack:

Not all races can be turned to zombies after death. Lore reasons

Dwarfs are supposed to be Magic resistant, but I think I remember seeing them in undead form in Warhammer Online. Could be tripping, but Greenskins too? Can someone confirm any of this?

[Garatgh Deloi]

Цитата допису Ysthrall:

Nagash invented the spells for raising the dead, and it took him centuries and no small amount of work. He might be capable of patching in multi-species variations, but few others would be. Other necromancers might not have the skill or power to modify the spell to that extent....

Unless i'm mistaken he just invented his own version of raising the dead (necromancy), but the Nehakarans already had the capability before this using their own magic.

Nagash combined dark magic that he learnt from captured Dark Elves with twisted/perverted Nehakaran rites to create his own flavor of undead.

[Daliena]

Цитата допису Gorwe:

Цитата допису Rack:

Not all races can be turned to zombies after death. Lore reasons

Dwarfs are supposed to be Magic resistant, but I think I remember seeing them in undead form in Warhammer Online. Could be tripping, but Greenskins too? Can someone confirm this?

Don't 'member WHO, but I do remember that at least in older versions, one Grudge that Dwarves could seemingly randomly end up referred to some necromancer raising a bunch of the stunties to act out a play.

And it was a really severe grudge because it was a -really- bad play.

[Zane87]

Цитата допису Ysthrall:

Цитата допису Zane87:

This was Nagash though.

He practically became a god and was the "father" (kinda) of vampires and necromancy

Nagash invented the spells for raising the dead, and it took him centuries and no small amount of work. He might be capable of patching in multi-species variations, but few others would be. Other necromancers might not have the skill or power to modify the spell to that extent....

Also Nagash was a warpstone addict like no second. That's not to be underestimated as he draw a significant amount of power from it, with all the side effects of it.

[A.Pot]

Цитата допису Kapika96:

Undead versions are typically much weaker though. Zombies are absolutely rubbish compared to even the weakest human soldiers.

Plus the undead raised by necromancers are basically just puppets used by the necromancer. Elf archers resurrected by a necromancer would be just as incapable of using a bow as the humans they resurrect, so there wouldn't really be any difference stat wise.

We literally have in the game two Undead factions that have access to ranged units as a regular part of their rosters so your statement is pretty false unless it was for the Vampire Counts.

Having undead versions of just other factions units easily allow the undead factions to cover their rosters weaknesses like how Vampire Counts are fairly limited with their anti large monster unit options or how Vampire Coast do not carry shields or how Tomb Kings have only one air unit and limited options for dealing with armored targets without using their constructs.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Цитата допису A.Pot:

We literally have in the game two Undead factions that have access to ranged units as a regular part of their rosters so your statement is pretty false unless it was for the Vampire Counts.

Having undead versions of just other factions units easily allow the undead factions to cover their rosters weaknesses like how Vampire Counts are fairly limited with their anti large monster unit options or how Vampire Coast do not carry shields or how Tomb Kings have only one air unit and limited options for dealing with armored targets without using their constructs.

P.S Depends a bit on how you use the word necromancy, our use of the word is simply "raising the dead", but in warhammer fantasy necromancy is a magic developed by Nagash, while there are also other non necromancy ways to raise the dead.

Vampire coast are a bit of a outliner having some special necromancy allowing undead to maintain enough brains to use ranged weaponry.

When it comes to tomb kings they don't use necromancy at all, their magic works differently allowing the original soul to remain in a corpse together with its memories and skills (to varying degrees, lesser tomb kings undead tend just retain their skills with perhaps a memory or two).

So i'd say that most undead raised by necromancy are indeed much weaker and can't use weaponry skillfully (or at all). So saying that "typical undead raised by necromancers are weaker" is still correct (again taking into account that tomb kings do not raise undead with necromancy or utilize necromancers, the exception being followers of Nagash like Arkhan the black).

[RedDevil99]

Цитата допису A.Pot:

Цитата допису Kapika96:

Undead versions are typically much weaker though. Zombies are absolutely rubbish compared to even the weakest human soldiers.

Plus the undead raised by necromancers are basically just puppets used by the necromancer. Elf archers resurrected by a necromancer would be just as incapable of using a bow as the humans they resurrect, so there wouldn't really be any difference stat wise.

We literally have in the game two Undead factions that have access to ranged units as a regular part of their rosters so your statement is pretty false unless it was for the Vampire Counts.

Having undead versions of just other factions units easily allow the undead factions to cover their rosters weaknesses like how Vampire Counts are fairly limited with their anti large monster unit options or how Vampire Coast do not carry shields or how Tomb Kings have only one air unit and limited options for dealing with armored targets without using their constructs.

It's complicated but undead magic is not the same nor does it work similarly for every race. TKs don't use any of Nagash's necromantic lore for their units because a) they hate the guy and b) they have their own rites and practices. This TK practices revolve around binding the soul to the reanimated body so, even the lowliest TK soldier has some of their previous memories and, as a consequence, actually remember how to use their weapons including archers.

Count necromancy is essentially a big old puppet show, with the necromancer in question working as a ventriloquist directing his forces around and having to manually direct his magic to their functions. Thus while a Count necromancer could power archers, it would be pointless because a) he could put all that excess dark magic into more zombies and skeletons, and b) it's really hard to puppet a dummy into spanning, loading, and shooting a crossbow.

Coast Necromancy is weird in that Luthor's (and by extension other Coast characters) magic isn't quite the pure necromancy of the Counts as he included certain portions of LZM magic along with his own power as a Blood Dragon of the second degree (turned directly by Abhorash). Even still in game the amount of guns the Coast has is probably a bit over-represented as Harkon doesn't normally command armies to the size of a Total War army and his magic can only go so far.

[A.Pot]

Цитата допису Garatgh Deloi:

Цитата допису A.Pot:

We literally have in the game two Undead factions that have access to ranged units as a regular part of their rosters so your statement is pretty false unless it was for the Vampire Counts.

Having undead versions of just other factions units easily allow the undead factions to cover their rosters weaknesses like how Vampire Counts are fairly limited with their anti large monster unit options or how Vampire Coast do not carry shields or how Tomb Kings have only one air unit and limited options for dealing with armored targets without using their constructs.

Vampire coast are a bit of a outliner having some special necromancy allowing undead to maintain enough brains to use ranged weaponry.

When it comes to tomb kings they don't use necromancy at all, their magic works differently allowing the original soul to remain in a corpse together with its memories and skills (to varying degrees, lesser tomb kings undead tend just retain their skills with perhaps a memory or two).

So i'd say that most undead raised by necromancy are indeed much weaker and can't use weaponry skillfully (or at all). So saying that "typical undead raised by necromancers are weaker" is still correct (again taking into account that tomb kings do not raise undead with necromancy or utilize necromancers, the exception being Arkhan the black).

Tomb Kings technically do use necromancy. Just not Nagash's brand which uses Dark Magic.

There are mentions in the Army Books of them raising other people as undead such turning dead Arabyan nomads into more skeleton soldiers for Numas or how if you drink from the Pools of Despair, you die and turn into a skeleton rather quickly before getting up and joining the Tomb Kings. They were also already making those constructs like the Tomb Scorpions and Hierotitans back when they were a living civilizations and they were powered by the souls of the Liche Priests whose mummified bodies are part of the Construct.

If we decide to go back even further, Settra used to launch raids upon the Old World for the sake of capturing living people and using them to increase the size of his undead legions.

Again, it really depends which group of undead are we talking about because as I mentioned we have two groups that can bring you back with enough ability to operate ranged weapons and war machines while two of the three undead groups can just straight up bring back large monsters to fight for them without

And related to the OP's post, yes it does happen that undead elves, dwarfs, skaven and other non human creatures do exist but are mainly in the Black Library books or the RPGs.

Edit: it also seems pointless just having to make all these different zombie units for the Vampire Counts if gameplay-wise they fill the exact same niche as regular zombies.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Цитата допису A.Pot:

Tomb Kings technically do use necromancy. Just not Nagash's brand which uses Dark Magic.

Then it would not be "necromancy", in warhammer fantasy necromancy is not simply raising the dead, its something more specific "the forbidden practice of creating and commanding the Undead via Dark Magic".

I added this in a p.s in my post, but it seems you started writing your answer before that :P .

Tomb kings uses the lore of Nehekhara their own magic lore involving rites (also perhaps involving their gods), they raise dead, but its not what warhammer fantasy refears to as necromancy.

[A.Pot]

Цитата допису RedDevil99:

It's complicated but undead magic is not the same nor does it work similarly for every race. TKs don't use any of Nagash's necromantic lore for their units because a) they hate the guy and b) they have their own rites and practices. This TK practices revolve around binding the soul to the reanimated body so, even the lowliest TK soldier has some of their previous memories and, as a consequence, actually remember how to use their weapons including archers.

Count necromancy is essentially a big old puppet show, with the necromancer in question working as a ventriloquist directing his forces around and having to manually direct his magic to their functions. Thus while a Count necromancer could power archers, it would be pointless because a) he could put all that excess dark magic into more zombies and skeletons, and b) it's really hard to puppet a dummy into spanning, loading, and shooting a crossbow.

Coast Necromancy is weird in that Luthor's (and by extension other Coast characters) magic isn't quite the pure necromancy of the Counts as he included certain portions of LZM magic along with his own power as a Blood Dragon of the second degree (turned directly by Abhorash). Even still in game the amount of guns the Coast has is probably a bit over-represented as Harkon doesn't normally command armies to the size of a Total War army and his magic can only go so far.

I already made a separate comment to address the differences in necromantic magic in the setting but pretty much yes, there are different kinds of necromancy used by all three undead groups.

Цитата допису Garatgh Deloi:

Then it would not be "necromancy", in warhammer fantasy necromancy is specifically the dark art developed by Nagash. I added this in a p.s in my post, but it seems you started writing your answer before that :P .

Tomb kings uses the lore of Nehekhara their own magic lore involving rites (also perhaps involving their gods), they raise dead, but its not necromancy.

If we are going to be technical about it, Tomb King necromancy is more like the ones used by Eldar from 40k. They bind the spirits of the deceased to power the construct but it just so happens that Tomb Kings can animate the bones as well.

If we also go by Black Library as a source as well, Nagash found out that other people were doing their own style of Necromancy and one completely separate from his own such as some barbarians using raw warpstone instead of Dark Magic. Another example of this can be seen in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay where there is at least one elf who studied necromancy long before Nagash was even born and became a Liche that causes trouble for the Dwarfs of Karak Azgal.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Цитата допису A.Pot:

If we are going to be technical about it, Tomb King necromancy is more like the ones used by Eldar from 40k. They bind the spirits of the deceased to power the construct but it just so happens that Tomb Kings can animate the bones as well.

Still not necromancy by warhammer fantasy standards since there is no "dark magic" involved. I'm just saying this to point out that the original "undead raised by necromancy typically" statement by Kapika96 can be viewed as correct. I realize our definition of necromancy differs from the definition in the warhammer fantasy universe.

Цитата допису A.Pot:

If we also go by Black Library as a source as well, Nagash found out that other people were doing their own style of Necromancy and one completely separate from his own such as some barbarians using raw warpstone instead of Dark Magic. Another example of this can be seen in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay where there is at least one elf who studied necromancy long before Nagash was even born and became a Liche that causes trouble for the Dwarfs of Karak Azgal.

Yes, but Nagash developed necromancy much further. I realize that my original message made it sound like he came up with it all on his own, so i edited it, its more accurate to say that he is the creator of "modern" necromancy using the black magic he learned from the dark elves and mixing it with Nehekharan rites.

The definition of necromancy in warhammer fantasy is "Necromancy is the forbidden practice of creating and commanding the Undead via Dark Magic". Note that dark magic is a requirement for it to be "necromancy", any other way to raise the dead is not considered necromancy.

[Cat®]

Just out of interest let's see how many different infantry types there are for all the factions to find out how many unique zombie models we'd need at a minimum. Anything distinct from something else gets a mention.

Humans
Dwarves
Orcs
Goblins
Chaos Humans (They are distinctly more swole than the other human factions)
Ungor
Gor
Bestigor
Wood Elves
Treekin?
Skinks
Redcrested Skinks
Saurus
Dark Elves\High Elves
Skaven

So around 14, let's add in monstrous infantry because if you can raise a saurus why not a kroxigor?

Vanilla Troll
Stone Troll
Chaos Troll
Ice Troll
River Troll (HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG)
Chaos Spawn
Giants
Dragon Ogres?
Minotaurs
More Treekin?
Kroxigors
Ratogres

Around 12. Let's not bother counting monsters themselves because we'd be here all day. But again, out of interest, if we say each one of these zombies had on average 3 models in a squad, much like hulks do. We'd have 27x3=81 models, That's at least one full faction with a DLC, I'd say. Give or take. Oh, and if they can get turned into spooky scary skellingtons you have to multiply that number by 1.66 for 134; skellingtons don't need that much variety.

I'd have liked to see appropriate undead for every faction, but I think I'd rather have an entirely new faction; given the option.

[Gorwe]

Цитата допису Daliena:

Цитата допису Gorwe:

Dwarfs are supposed to be Magic resistant, but I think I remember seeing them in undead form in Warhammer Online. Could be tripping, but Greenskins too? Can someone confirm this?

Don't 'member WHO, but I do remember that at least in older versions, one Grudge that Dwarves could seemingly randomly end up referred to some necromancer raising a bunch of the stunties to act out a play.

And it was a really severe grudge because it was a -really- bad play.

Neborhest...♥♥♥♥ that Tower, but I can't remember about whether you fight undead Dwarfs. But I think I did fight some in the Marshes of Madness, not necessarily Neborhest, he's simply the most infamous necro in those parts. Now that I think better, I'm almost sure there are some undead Dwarfs in the Chaos Wastes - Order side. Epic Quest cave.

Also, here's a simple key to understand the difference between TKs and Nagash:

TK: Free will, simply reanimated, god related
Nagash: Bound will, thralls, magic related

That's the short version of it.

[Revelation]

Цитата допису Zane87:

Цитата допису Teh Ømñïssåh:

IIRC a war between Tomb kings and skaven saw TK turn dead skaven against them. Actually undead skaven were also a thing in the gotrek and felix books

This was Nagash though.
Nagash is an entire different category compared to the classical necromancers we were talking about, as was his magic.

He practically became a god and was the "father" (kinda) of vampires and necromancy

The second one was some Chaos tzeentch worshippers with gotrek and felix, had nothing to do with nagash (as far as the story tells) 100% chaos.

in any of these cases it adds to OP, undead skaven could be a thing, from multiple angles and from rando' bits of lore.

[Zane87]

Цитата допису Teh Ømñïssåh:

Цитата допису Zane87:

This was Nagash though.
Nagash is an entire different category compared to the classical necromancers we were talking about, as was his magic.

He practically became a god and was the "father" (kinda) of vampires and necromancy

The second one was some Chaos tzeentch worshippers with gotrek and felix, had nothing to do with nagash (as far as the story tells) 100% chaos.

in any of these cases it adds to OP, undead skaven could be a thing, from multiple angles and from rando' bits of lore.

Interesting to know, thanks for the heads-up. Didn't read any of the Gotrek and Felix novels yet (yeah I know, everyone says they are great).

Well, I wouldn't mind some undead ratling gunners myself then, to be honest ^^