So Aside from Looking Fantastic, What are War Wagons Actually Supposed to do?

[James Howlette]

After using them for a few battles in Markus' campaign they kind of feel like they were meant to be a jack of all trades unit.. but the issue is that they don't actually seem to perform even passably in anything.

Too slow to use effectively as skirmishers (at least against the lizards you start the game fighting)

Not beefy enough to use as chariots or as cav

Get eaten alive in any range vs range match-up

Is there just something obvious I'm missing with them? I absolutely love the way they look, and lore-wise they're a fun addition, but they just seem not to do anything of any use in battles.

[Dreamer]

Yea a lot of people seem to agree with you. I haven't tested them yet since I'm busy being disappointed with Nakai's faction.

[Xajmai]

They soak more ranged damage than other skirmish cav like pistolers and outriders. Think of it like a more sturdy but slower type of outriders. Outriders lose damage potential with every model they lose but wagons have few models and can push out their damage during a prolonged engagement. The skirmish cav was never a counter to enemy ranged. Try attacking some archers with your outriders and see what happens.

[Wendersnaven]

The old war wagons were a special unit during the Tablehammer days. (4th Edition). It carried a variety of engineers atop who were armed with experimental weaponry. The model was replaced with War Altars and Steam Tanks in later editions. It was a quirky unit and slowed down games with all its special rules, but it's nice imho to have the throwback unit.

It was supposed to be a heavy chariot with effective ranged and close combat options. So I'd say your interpretation is dead on. I'm still waiting on the update to check out the new ones, but in a Total War format, they really should operate as galloper guns do in any of the Napoleonic eras. (Empire, Nap, FoTS). I'd experiment with keeping them in reserve, until lines are engaged, then rolling them to rear and flanks.

[dudex]

only thing they are good for is bait for the ai. can split enemy armies up so u can cheese the early battles with markus.

otherwise they are crap.

[Chameon]

Base War Wagons vs Pistoliers (Imperial Ranged Cav that auto-skirmish)

War Wagons have infinite ammo (200 shots per chariot) compared to Pistoliers 38 shots per model (More like 76 because 2 shots per volley per model that can, but hey, you get the idea), War Wagons win out in -infinite- battles, but not in shorter term things.
War Wagons cap out at 50 speed, which is pretty godawful compared to Pistoliers 90.
War Wagons penetrate armor at 15 damage a shot, but only do 18 damage a shot with a -tiny- model count.
War Wagons have terrible melee capacities, even worse then the pistoliers, although their...I really can't justify them getting into melee in any circumstance.

So what's the point of war wagons. Inasfar as I can tell, the point of -basic- war wagons is to have a long burn ranged DPS that's somewhat secure against cav, having a slightly better speed then ranged infantry, who have a better chance of escaping heavy cav (Such as Demigryph Knights) for at least an okay amount of time, constantly ticking for small points of damage that's fairly reliable.

In a game with infinite unit capacity, War Wagons would be considerred a decent 'point waster' when you ran out of things you considered staples or necessary to what your actual strategy is, something you just buy when you have that extra few coins because "Eh, it won't do terribly, it won't do -great- either, but I only have so much space on the battlefield, and it only takes so much space on the battlefield."

Now, let's go to the actual scary War Wagons, The War Wagon (Mortars)

Compared to mortars 40 less range, same damage, 6 less shots per model (same number of models), better stats -universally- elsewhere, and if you're worried about someone going after them, you can have them start running away. Mortars are decent enough artillery even fairly late in the game for disrupting enemy formations and dealing damage pretty heavily. While I won't say they're Ushabti with greatbow good, they're definitely worth considerring including in any army where you just have an extra slot free and could use an artillery piece, as they can also move unlike any other artillery piece and, when they inevitably run out of ammo, they're a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ chariot, but they are still a chariot, and a 30 charge bonus is still a 30 charge bonus.

[Wyvern]

They're a unit built for a long, drawn out game. Given the quick, blitzing nature of campaign battles, this is not exactly a fun unit design, since to get the most out of the unit, you want to play it safe, expend your ammo on critical targets, then run the survivors over, but that said, between the 3 carriages you can dish out a good chunk of hurt without as much risk of model bleed(whereas outriders lose models all the time). If you have to fight ranged, you can run it over as a chariot. If you want to kite, you can do so vs infantry and monstrous infantry. With the fact that empire can easily run cav screens, it gets even easier to avoid basically everything.

[James Howlette]

Originally posted by Xajmai:

They soak more ranged damage than other skirmish cav like pistolers and outriders. Think of it like a more sturdy but slower type of outriders. Outriders lose damage potential with every model they lose but wagons have few models and can push out their damage during a prolonged engagement. The skirmish cav was never a counter to enemy ranged. Try attacking some archers with your outriders and see what happens.

Yeah, that's how I was trying to use them. But their speed is a massive issue in using them to skirmish; especially against lizardmen whose basic skinks can keep pace with them.

They get into range, fire off a few shots, then (unlike pistoliers or outriders that can book it the heck out enemy range with their 80+ speed while losing maybe a model or two) the war wagons just lumber along as javelins rain down on them chewing them up.

[Wendersnaven]

Originally posted by James Howlette:

Originally posted by Xajmai:

They soak more ranged damage than other skirmish cav like pistolers and outriders. Think of it like a more sturdy but slower type of outriders. Outriders lose damage potential with every model they lose but wagons have few models and can push out their damage during a prolonged engagement. The skirmish cav was never a counter to enemy ranged. Try attacking some archers with your outriders and see what happens.

Yeah, that's how I as trying to use them. But their speed is a massive issue in using them to skirmish; especially against lizardmen whose basic skinks can keep pace with them.

They get into range, fire off a few shots, then (unlike pistoliers or outriders that can book it the heck out enemy range with their 80+ speed while losing maybe a model or two) the war wagons just lumber along as javelins rain down on them chewing them up.

I'm assuming the javelins are poisoned? Perhaps they need an armor buff, but their weakness is having horses instead of a steam engine.

[Xajmai]

Originally posted by Wendersnaven:

Originally posted by James Howlette:

Yeah, that's how I as trying to use them. But their speed is a massive issue in using them to skirmish; especially against lizardmen whose basic skinks can keep pace with them.

They get into range, fire off a few shots, then (unlike pistoliers or outriders that can book it the heck out enemy range with their 80+ speed while losing maybe a model or two) the war wagons just lumber along as javelins rain down on them chewing them up.

I'm assuming the javelins are poisoned? Perhaps they need an armor buff, but their weakness is having horses instead of a steam engine.

Yupp, in my campaign the war wagon outruns all lizardmen infantry, except when they are poisoned

[Wendersnaven]

Yeah, in tabletop poison was there to counter heavy armor. It's a brave new world...

[an entire Roman legion]

they plow thru stuff

plus a little shooting

[James Howlette]

Originally posted by Xajmai:

Originally posted by Wendersnaven:

I'm assuming the javelins are poisoned? Perhaps they need an armor buff, but their weakness is having horses instead of a steam engine.

Yupp, in my campaign the war wagon outruns all lizardmen infantry, except when they are poisoned

It's right there in the stats:

Kroxs- 46 base speed

Skinks- 48 base speed

War Wagons- 50 base speed

Cold Ones- 60 base speed

Outriders- 84 base speed

Pistoliers- 90 base speed

A war wagon is barely... emphasis on barely with that 2 point difference... able to outrun faster lizard infantry units and if they have a single unit of basic cav, war wagons are entirely screwed.

Actual skirmishers on the other hand are a good 30% faster than lizard cav and can easily out maneuver their infantry.

[Sn3z]

The mortar war wagons are are just acting more as a transition from mortars that fairly straight forward your making your backline a-bit harder to hit, the hand gunner one's I expect some crossover with outrider/handgunners again your making your backline harder to hit but for Empire also means one flank can be to skirmish, outriders generally need cavalry support as they can't fire 360, outriders can replace handgunners in some way so there's something interesting going on here.

Also the archers are a fine addition, they are now a lower tier counterpart to crossbows and crossbows can even be replaced by hunstmens who can fire whilst moving this means Empire army composition have simply become a-lot more versitile which is their faction strength they have in some ways aquired a WE faction advantage but its done in more limited way.

I also like to say that the T1 settlement building's offering a basic unit recruitment is a really good change, it should to used for other factions like Bretonnia.

[cb4n28]

Manuever the hand gunner ones behind the enemy after engagement starts and have them cycle charge into the enemy infantry. They mash up skinks and saurus pretty good as a chariot and their armor piercing ranged helps. They are also pretty wall like and good and preventing routing enemies from getting away

I agree that their speed relative to Lizardmen reduces their utility in those engagements, but the flip side of course is that they become good skirmishers against slower armies

[p10k56]

Arent wagons gunners somewhat more elevated so they can function as some sort of mobile towers behind meele lines.