Doomwheel vs Doom-Flayers, and Warpfire Throwers vs Ratling Guns

[funkmonster7]

There are posts like this strewn across the Internet already, but they're mostly "Doom-Flayer outclasses Doomwheel because" and "Ratling Guns all the way, Warpfire Throwers are useless".

After having just fought Belegar's ghost heroes in an ambush battle and saw how my Warpfire Throwers melted the ghost heroes whereas the Ratling Guns couldn't put much of a dent into them, I realized that the Warpfire Throwers at least have magic damage, and the ghost heroes I believe have 0 armor. So there is perhaps some use in Warpfire Throwers after all...

So, I'm opening this thread to see if anyone knows under what circumstances would Doomwheels be worth using over Doom-Flayers. I just want to know if there's any purpose in getting a Warlock Engineer hero (or any Skaven lord) that has the Warpstone Hoarder trait which gives -12% upkeep for Warpfire Throwers, Warp-Lightning Cannons and Doomwheel units.

[Wyvern]

Doomwheels cause terror, fight large better, kill models easier and have higher mass.

Warpfire throwers are better for leadership bombing cuz of burnt and do magic damage.

[Fendelphi]

As Wyvern said, Doomwheels does have more mass and a few other tricks(like fear, terror and a ranged attack). They cant lose efficiency due to damage either(Flayer's can lose models, which will reduce their effectiveness).
It is worse at chasing down fleeing units though, and is a bigger target for missile fire.
I would say that they are about equal overall.


Warpfire Throwers(WFT) is a very powerful anti-infantry unit, but with a lot of limitations, like arc of fire, range, low AP, low surviability and other things. It is so severe that it has a reduced cost in MP(from 700 in campaign, to 550 in MP, more than 20% cost reduction).
It is not that it is bad at what it does. It is just overspecialized with some big drawbacks and there are just so many other things in the Skaven roster than can do a similar thing(kill low armored chaff) that are either cheaper, easier to use, more survivability or something else.

At the same time, Ratling Gunners is a more flexible unit and easier to utilize(and have an increased cost in MP due to this).

Ghost heroes are not that big of a deal for Skaven, since they get their own lords and heroes, and even units, that deal magic damage(if you want it). And Skaven spells of Ruin has a spell that completely melts them(Flensing Ruin).

[Zane87]

Doomflayers are all in all weaker than Doomwheels but they are far from useless.

They are faster, have much smaller hitboxes, attack animations that makes them drive around (= change position) often and that all makes them much, much, much less susceptible to ranged fire. They also can bind more enemies that way and that makes them an ideal tarpit for ranged-heavy armies who can also take a lot of FF without blocking off your own LoS.

Doomwheels = the endgame stuff in doomstacks/lategame armies.
Doomflayers = excellent midgame supporters for midgame ranged armies.
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Ratlings have higher range, suppression, better single target damage and are all around better. But warpfire throwers are not useless.

Warpfire throwers deal a burst of splash damage which is a great leadership shock, absolutely deletes chaff and also reduces their movement via knockback. They also can target units on walls a bit better due to splash

2 warpfire throwers within 2 or 4 ratlings are a perfect complement. Ratlings slow down and warpfire finish off everything that comes to close. Especially useful due to the way auto targeting works, ratlings may not switch fast enough when overwhelmed by many units, but due to lower range warpfire throwers will target those enemy units first.

[Velkhana's Summer]

You'll always want to look for combat traits in your lord, or ones that buff your army significantly. Upkeep is always something that you can make up for by building for more income. As for which is better, doomwheel is a lot more micro intensive so if you asking these types of questions you're probably newer so I'd suggest the flayers. Warpfire throwers are way easier to forget about if they get caught they have better armor and they can shoot at eachother if one gets caught and their line of fire is harder to obscure compared to gunners and in conjunction with the AP from the flayers its all you need. Fire and Flayers all the way!

[Andrewbh2003]

doomwheels are the only source of high mobile terror in the skaven roster

they do have other terror options "Most notably the hellpit" but its not exacly...fast lets just say

doomwheels have the speed to get where they need to be and rear charging a unit at 50% leadership will route and/or terrorize it pretty much instantly in addition to dealing solid damage against even the most elite units

terror in general is very very strong but for skaven especially it helps put the pressure of your fragile low leadership frontline and "equalize" the infantry fight

i honestly think flayers and wheels are pretty much equals in terms of strength they both have different pros and cons and in certain scenarios i would not want 1 or the other

the only way i could see myself changing my mind is if they made flayers cause terror "that wont happen but still" but as long as the doomwheel remains the mobile terror source that it is i will always view them as equal simply cause you cant put a price on mobile anti-infantry AP terror