anyone else tired of spears having huge bonus vs large?

[emcdunna]

Newsflash: spearmen in every total war game have had a huge bonus vs cavalry (and now in warhammer, bonus vs large).

This is very unrealistic and immersion breaking. Historically, spears were the cheapest most common weapon for millenia. Cavalry were continuously able to crush infantry armed with spears. Spears were never a hard counter for cavalry, because if they were, then every ancient army would stop using cavalry.

Spear walls, tightly packed units with braced spears could cause a lot of damage to cavalry on the charge, however they weren't suddenly godly weapons after the melee was joined. A better charge defense bonus would be just fine, anti large is just overkill.

In rome 2, almost every faction relies on tier 1 spearmen early on, which are so specialized for anti-cav that they die horribly to sword units (like hastati). That also makes no sense, spearmen wouldn't be useless vs sword infantry as depicted in rome 2.

In warhammer, it's worse because spears also get a bonus vs trolls and dragons and monsters which again, doesn't make sense. It's very silly that simple tier 1 spear infantry do better vs trolls than elites without spears.

I'm tired of this. I feel like spearmen should instead simply be a defensive unit, better at absorbing damage and holding the line, but not the special forces level anti-large unit they are today.

This goes against a massive about of "gamer wisdom" from decades of games that insist that spears just skewer cavalry, but if you think about it, it really is kinda silly and overdone.

[therecanonlybeone]

dont be silly - i could list tens of (actually historical) examples of the effectivness of spears vs cav and as a unit in general. This is why they were sucessfully deployed , as you say, for millenia. doubly so for the fact that any mook can be rapidly trained to use one. large unit easy to poke with big pointy stick...

for swords - once INSIDE the length of a spear the sword is extremely effective as the spear is too long to weild.

in the main 'ancient' cavalry where there to run down skirmishers and harrass supply lines/ rear units. there are also plenty of examples where cavalry get bogged in to opposing forces and picked apart.

more edits! this idea that cav are some sort of armoured god of war is just not so- look up a weapon called a billhook, this essentially ended the supremacy of the skilled armoured knight as it was a peasant weapon with the purpose of unhorsing a fully armoured knight and was damned effective as such -why bother with all that training and armor etc when stinky Billy Potatopicker with very little skill or training can nulify all this

[emcdunna]

+15 bonus vs cavalry is still too high though, and the spear unit's base damage is too low.

Spear units basically do close to double damage to a cavalry unit compared to a similar tier sword unit, and often lose to that sword unit by a huge margin.

That is too much, mmk?

The fact that in warhammer it's also applied to monsters and trolls and stuff makes it much much worse. Spearmen shouldn't be THAT different compared to a sword unit.

[therecanonlybeone]

Originally posted by emcdunna:

+15 bonus vs cavalry is still too high though, and the spear unit's base damage is too low.

Spear units basically do close to double damage to a cavalry unit compared to a similar tier sword unit, and often lose to that sword unit by a huge margin.

That is too much, mmk?

The fact that in warhammer it's also applied to monsters and trolls and stuff makes it much much worse. Spearmen shouldn't be THAT different compared to a sword unit.

ok work with me here - imagine a block of dudes pointy sticks towards you and you on your horse, do you think your horse is dumb enough to run INTO that wall of pointy death. They do not. Infact the larger the target the more effective it becomes. take your troll or dragon for example -imagine the same spear wall as before, charged by a tonnage of big beast= big beast full of holes- remember a spear could be 6-8 feet longso you hold that big beast a distance from your line- win. ofc this is all in the realm of fantasy so.. i agreee the mass of the huge targets will destroy cohsion- which is key to a successful spear wall- but to break that cohesion the beast will have had to get through the spear wall and is most likley dead/dying certainly greivouly wounded- this has been gamified and seems reasonable to me the way it is

as described earlier swords/ short weap[ons are effective against spears as once inside the spear range the spear is ineefective/ unweildy ie not designed for the purpose of fighting a dude with a sword

[Scipio]

Spearmen should be a hell of a lot better than swordsmen against monsters. If you're fighting something huge with long arms wielding a club as big as you are, you want to be able to poke at it from a distance together with all your friends.

Not saying the numbers might not be a bit skewed, but the concept is solid.

[spookySkylark]

Spears can poke big monsters in their fleshy vulnerable bits, like the face, stomach, and neck, where as with swords and axes you're stuck hitting them in the shin and foot. Makes sense spears and halberds would be good against large.

[Dumbfounded Polymath]

Don't charge spears with cavalry then, and counter cavalry with swords if you don't like it.

[emcdunna]

The way that total war treats bonus vs large is specifically the issue here. It applies it as a huge bonus to damage, for all attacks against that target. Maybe a +5 would be much more reasonable than +15, because it does make a difference.

Simultaneously, swords are a fine weapon but I doesn't mean that spartan hoplites should lose in melee to legionnaries, or that high elf spearmen should lose vs empire swordsmen.

The degree of difference between unit types is way too much. Sure maybe spears should be slightly better against cav but they are so insanely strong vs them that it's really annoying and distracting from the game's immersion.

Plus in warhammer it limits the use of elites who actually specialize at hunting monsters, since you have such a cheap counter to them with tier1 spears

[emcdunna]

You can charge engaged spearmen in the rear with cav and end up losing.

The game actually already has a "weapon length" mechanic which allows units to attack from further away, which should theoretically help you in melee with large beasts. Spears have length 2, with swords length 1. So that does already exist behind the scenes

[Brave and Fearless Sir Shiba]

Originally posted by emcdunna:

You can charge engaged spearmen in the rear with cav and end up losing.

probably shouldve voted for the cycle charge instead of leaving them there. cause if you leave them there of course they'll get curbstomped by the rear soldiers of the unit cause they'll turn and fight them too (if they havent routed)

[emcdunna]

The bonus vs large is damage, not melee stats. So that means it just makes the unit slaughter large units and underperform against infantry. Weapon length and charge bracing are better stats for them to actually use

[emcdunna]

No I meant if cav charges spears in the rear and stays engaged, they lose.

If they do the same thing to swordsmen of similar caliber, they'll win.

That's a huge deal

[emcdunna]

The only reason you don't take 100% spear infantry is because they suck so much vs regular infantry, which again, is just silly. Formed up units with spears did fine in melee with sword units, they didn't horribly lose and lack all effectiveness when faced with similar tier swordsmen.

[therecanonlybeone]

Originally posted by emcdunna:

You can charge engaged spearmen in the rear with cav and end up losing.

The game actually already has a "weapon length" mechanic which allows units to attack from further away, which should theoretically help you in melee with large beasts. Spears have length 2, with swords length 1. So that does already exist behind the scenes

i do understand where you are coming from- however in the instance of a large beast hitting a spear wall that large target (realistically) is dead but it would be deeply unstisfying for you the player to lose your big beast VERY quickly to a spear wall. as you acknowledge length plays a part in effectivness- it is easy for your swordsman to step around the spears/ push them out of the way etc- when inside the range of a spear the spear is ineffective hence swords/ short weapons have the advantage.

take your hopilite example- they were the superweapon of their time but were superceded by roman legionary tactics whereby the short sword was highly effective once INSIDE the reach of a spear/ pike/ long pointy stick. a swordsman fights as an individual( well , more so), a spear relies on the unit as a whole for its effectiveness ( and the MOMENTUM of the unit engaging it). take your horse again- lets say its has a mass of one tonne with rider traveling at lets say 20mph on the charge. that mass and momentum aginst a spear= a truly effective and highly damaging attack.

as stated before this has been gamified for your enjoyment

[emcdunna]

Legionnaries beat hoplites because hoplite walls needed to be on flat ground to stay in cohesion. The legions were able to fight them in forests and hills where spearwalls don't work well.

It had a lot more to do with the distribution of men and unit cohesion then actual sword vs spear.

Truthfully, spears should have a damage bounce-back vs chargers, large or small, to basically redirect charge damage onto the charging unit.

They should be more defensive (melee defense) when in strong cohesion and lower defense when they've lost that cohesion.

But total war's engine can't represent those things. Instead it just makes spears the goto cav killer and they end up acting more like special flank protector units than the main-line unit they often were historically, and should be in warhammer lore.

Oh plus in warhammer, halberds have that bonus vs large but also grant more armor piercing damage, so halberds largely depracate the need for actual spearmen.

Empire has this the worst. Spearmen with shields are a niche unit, poor vs infantry, and halberdiers are better vs large units, so that's specifically the unit balance I see as problematic

[Kirb]

Balance>Realism it's a vidya game. If spears beat infantry AND large units, there'd literally be no point to buying sword/axe infantry if your faction has shielded spears. On the other hand, if you give your spearmen shields they get a pretty big boost to their already high melee defense.

The main thing to think about isn't so much the Anti-large -BONUS- trait but the actual stats themselves. Most infantry tend to have higher attack than spears but the latter tends to have higher defense.