Empire Spearmen and swordsmen seems oddly weak?

[Lenny]

I dunno, they seem weak. They fall off early and really hard. So I notice that Bretonnian spearmen-at-arms cost a bit less with almost comparable stats, except they also get a shiny silver shield to stand behind. Hmmm.

Wood elves Eternal Guard costs a bit more than spearmen, with better stats (much higher leadership) and again; silver shields.

Goblin stick-pokers, silver shields. Huh.

So I'm starting to wonder, should´nt Empire guys get silver shields as well? Would make them just a bit more viable, or at least give them some kind of gimmick. Thoughts?

[M4tt]

They're supposed to be weak. Because unlike Bretonnia you have more firepower to rely on.
WE are a quality over quantity kind of faction, so having better stats and equipment but fewer numbers makes sense.
Goblins have better shields because they need to advance into enemy fire thanks to their lack of long range weaponry.

[Darklordnj]

They do their role well enough and can be used far into the late game as their job is solely to hold the line while artillery, cavalry, mages, more advanced infantry, and ranged infantry do their jobs.
They won’t get many kills like eternal guard would, but they’ll hold monsters in place better than unbuffed brettonian spearman-at-arms can.

[A.Pot]

Quantity vs Quality. Empire and Bretonnian basic infantry are supposed to be weaker compared to those of the Elves or Dwarfs but are more numerous or cheaper to field. Their job is to hold the line while other units like the Knights, artillery or ranged troops do the damage.

[Hieronymous]

There's many units in this game who have the unfortunate battlefield role of cannon fodder. Swordsmen are one.

[Andrewbh2003]

there not really

for what you pay for vs what you get empire state troops are VERY cost effective

400 gold "baseline" you get 32-32-28 with 7 AP 60 LD decent speed

a very standard stat-line

they beat anything cheaper and lose to anything more expensive swordsmen for the cost are everything you would expect from a basic frontline infantry unit

spearmen w/shields are even better as they have 44 MD and hold for a very long time

and if you want to empire has plenty of ways of supporting there frontlines including a warrior priest as swordsmen buffed by the hammer of sigmar can pummel any lightly armoured unit relatively well

[Lenny]

Originally posted by andrewbh2003:

there not really

for what you pay for vs what you get empire state troops are VERY cost effective

400 gold "baseline" you get 32-32-28 with 7 AP 60 LD decent speed

a very standard stat-line

they beat anything cheaper and lose to anything more expensive swordsmen for the cost are everything you would expect from a basic frontline infantry unit

spearmen w/shields are even better as they have 44 MD and hold for a very long time

and if you want to empire has plenty of ways of supporting there frontlines including a warrior priest as swordsmen buffed by the hammer of sigmar can pummel any lightly armoured unit relatively well

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I'm guessing this is mostly MP balance though right? 'Cause I can totally see how they would be decent value for gold and viable in that case.

But is this true in the Campaign as well?

Unit slots are more precious than gold, but I can usually see some reason to bring a few gobbos, bats or peasant infantry along. I can never justify bringing a pair of Spearmen over just a few extra Halberders. Partly because they´re not Expendable, and partly because their only advantage, the shield, is pretty weak.

Are you using any low tier Empire infantry on purpous, and if so why? Should I even try to find a reason or just stack the greatswords high every time?

[an entire Roman legion]

Originally posted by Lenny:

Originally posted by andrewbh2003:

there not really

for what you pay for vs what you get empire state troops are VERY cost effective

400 gold "baseline" you get 32-32-28 with 7 AP 60 LD decent speed

a very standard stat-line

they beat anything cheaper and lose to anything more expensive swordsmen for the cost are everything you would expect from a basic frontline infantry unit

spearmen w/shields are even better as they have 44 MD and hold for a very long time

and if you want to empire has plenty of ways of supporting there frontlines including a warrior priest as swordsmen buffed by the hammer of sigmar can pummel any lightly armoured unit relatively well

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I'm guessing this is mostly MP balance though right? 'Cause I can totally see how they would be decent value for gold and viable in that case.

But is this true in the Campaign as well?

Unit slots are more precious than gold, but I can usually see some reason to bring a few gobbos, bats or peasant infantry along. I can never justify bringing a pair of Spearmen over just a few extra Halberders. Partly because they´re not Expendable, and partly because their only advantage, the shield, is pretty weak.

Are you using any low tier Empire infantry on purpous, and if so why? Should I even try to find a reason or just stack the greatswords high every time?

tbh, with how range is pretty dominant atm, I prefer spears w/shield over halberds, only if I really need a dedicated AL unit

[Kalvix]

For me with empire I use spearmen and swords only super early on, then by the time I get halberdiers I only ever use them. Idea is pretty much use them to hold the line while you batter the enemy with artillery and charge horses into them.

[franz]

you can beat vamps with the tech and t-shirts and spears only (the cheapest melee unit) in AR ez 90% + 1v1 anything they bring bar Vlad.

[Andrewbh2003]

Originally posted by Lenny:

Originally posted by andrewbh2003:

there not really

for what you pay for vs what you get empire state troops are VERY cost effective

400 gold "baseline" you get 32-32-28 with 7 AP 60 LD decent speed

a very standard stat-line

they beat anything cheaper and lose to anything more expensive swordsmen for the cost are everything you would expect from a basic frontline infantry unit

spearmen w/shields are even better as they have 44 MD and hold for a very long time

and if you want to empire has plenty of ways of supporting there frontlines including a warrior priest as swordsmen buffed by the hammer of sigmar can pummel any lightly armoured unit relatively well

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I'm guessing this is mostly MP balance though right? 'Cause I can totally see how they would be decent value for gold and viable in that case.

But is this true in the Campaign as well?

Unit slots are more precious than gold, but I can usually see some reason to bring a few gobbos, bats or peasant infantry along. I can never justify bringing a pair of Spearmen over just a few extra Halberders. Partly because they´re not Expendable, and partly because their only advantage, the shield, is pretty weak.

Are you using any low tier Empire infantry on purpous, and if so why? Should I even try to find a reason or just stack the greatswords high every time?

this point actually applies to both

basically as empire any race that you are primarily gonna be fighting in a empire campaign swordsmen do hold up rather well

vs beastmen swordsmen can hold there own against everything up to gors but against gors swordsmen supported by a warrior priest do win quite well

and if there are a ton of bestigors then the empires superior cavalry and support can win the swordsmen in that case just need to hold the line and they do that job very well

basically they beat down beastmen chaff trade well in to gors and can at least hold for a while against bestigors

and again EVEN with bestigors empire has a TON of ways of defeating bestigors that arent infantry namely half the empires missile roster and there heavy cav again empire is a combined arms faction use them as such

against norsca its a little harder as zerkers will just cut straight through lines of state troops but simmilar to beastmen there just there to hold but out of all of these examples norsca is the weakest

against bretonia well swordsmen straight up they trade well in to ALL of bretonias infantry even squires even if swordsmen dont "win" they trade well and again empire wont exacly struggle to deal with foot squires anyway so swordsmen are MVPS against bretonia

against chaos well... swordsmen trade decently against chaos marauders and again warrior priest support they easily win and think of it like this you can field 2 units of swordsmen for every chaos warrior on the field and you can field 3.5 for every chosen so swordsmen are gonna hold for a good time there

but vs chaos empire has basically no way of beating there infantry but empire has a ton of OTHER ways to deal with chosen and the like such as artilery and demis

vs greenskins swordsmen trade evenly in to boyz when you factor cost beat goblins quite handidly and can hold and sometimes beat savage orcs and big uns and well...again black orcs are not a threat as 1 unit of handgunners will wreck them see the theme here? any race that empire is primarily gonna fight fields infantry that swordsmen either BEAT or they at least hold and buy time

and with warrior priest support empire melee lines are actually VERY sturdy but like everything else they need support as empire is a combined arms faction

now if your playing wulfheart thats where i would prefer spears over swords as well...saurus exist

but swordsmen are not bad by any means they trade well in to pretty much all infantry around there tier and they give exacly what you would expect and nothing more and "again" warrior priests turn swordsmen in to plague monks almost with there buffs

now again there are races where swordsmen dont perform well " lizardmen as a example" but in general there a very solid unit that hold there own against most units even ones that vastly outclass them in that regard

if you test them pure 1v1 you will be dissapointed but empire plays best when every unit is supporting eachother in combined arms and thats where swordsmen really shine as there cheap effective chaff clearers who can trade well in to better units especially if supported

[Wyvern]

Just pointing out, shield is not weak, even if only 35%. Youre looking at 9500ish effective hp vs missiles befote factoring armor as opposed to ~6500 on halberds, which is a huge difference for withstanding fire.

[wrought82]

in campaign you're forced to move up the tier on higher difficulty, by the time you have enough armies that the low cost (power pr slot) of swordsmen matter more than efficiency you should have access to other melee units and leave swordsmen behind
Its just one of the unfortunate effects of supply lines, you really should be using a mod like suplly lines rework imo

without supply lines swordsmen are good for their cost

[Father Ribs]

Bretonnia has soft caps on how much infantry it can take, so there is added opportunity cost for them to field spearmen.

I'm meh about comparing apples to oranges for most species troops...a single human should be dogmeat to any other thing out there except a goblin, a skaven, or an animated skeleton.

Also, there are an aweful lot of territories that buff spearmen (wood), making them pretty darn cheap and a huge skillup. Just in general, Empire seems to be able to recruit stuff straight in as gold tier troops once they have a province set up right.

Plus at the end of the day, spearmen were never the arm of decision; they're there to hold the line for the shooties and calvary can poke holes in the enemy.

[Lenny]

After considering all of the above I'm inclined to stick with my initial feeling; Basic swordsmen and spearmen are not viable in campaign, as they are outclassed by halberdiers in their one and only role as defensive line infantry.

While it may be true that Swordsmen do deal quickly with inferior units, and Shielded Spearmen have a good chunk of extra health over halberdeirs for the purpous of face-tanking missile fire, they both trade away the very powerful combination of Charge defence, armor piercing damage and superior stats, which I feel is a very steep price.

Empire are indeed a joint forces faction, with a huge number of ways to bolster and support the infantry line. I am by no means an expert on them, but the way I see it, it's still the infantry that has to do the winning in the end. If the line collapses then you're pretty much done. The most damning thing is that, without any unique advantages of their own, these (IMO) inferior units would take the exact place and role of a superior candidate.

[Ashley]

They're fine unless you're playing the huntsmarshal. They'll stomp early game undead easily.