Is the skaven master assassin useless?

[Tazor]

He is getting rekt by a slann mage priest. Just wtf. They 1v1ed each other the entire fight, no intervention. This is how it looks so far.

https://i.imgur.com/ZC54knx.jpg

[funkmonster7]

Cacomistle님이 먼저 게시:

Sn3z님이 먼저 게시:

Would I be wrong in sensing some git gud here?

Honestly in these types of threads, yes.

If the OP says, "I think I'm using asssassin wrong, he's dying to slann. What should I be doing?" then there's no git gud required. That means OP is acknowledging they may be doing something wrong and that there may be a better way.

When OP makes definitive claims about the game saying "this unit is useless because the way I'm using it doesn't work", then they damn well better be using it in an effective way. That's a strong claim about the unit, I think it requires some strong skill and game knowledge to back it up.

The title: "Is the skaven master assassin useless?" OP asked a question, so 'git gud' is not really a good answer to the question. You use 'git gud' to make fun of ridiculous statements that end with a full stop.

It's normal to find OPs make upset statements, they just lost a battle after all, when they're expecting a victory.

The name "Master Assassin" implies strongly what that lord is used for. But personally, I found Assassin heroes more useful than Master Assassins. I mean, sure a Master Assassin has ranged attacks. But you can only have one Master Assassin, while you can have several Assassin heroes. Out of all the Skaven lords, Master Assassins are almost useless by comparison. I'd take the Skaven Warlord over the Master Assassin, personally.

Skaven already have tons of sniper units, the most commonly used ones even outrange the Master Assassin. And since Master Assassins were introduced with the Eshin DLC; Eshin's Gutter Runners etc all have AP missiles while the Master Assassin doesn't get AP missiles.

I'd take a Grey Seer over a Master Assassin any time.

If a Master Assassin then fails to 1v1 an enemy lord then I'd really begin to question its viability.

Taking all of this into account, one can understand OP's tone. However, I think the title with the ? mark should imply he's more willing to learn than we think. :)

But yeah, I would take a Grey Seer over a Master Assassin. I think only the Grey Seer (Plague) gets The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell, that's an incredibly powerful spell.

I'd use a Skaven Warlock lord but I like Warlock Engineers for their army buffs. So like Cacomistle said, I'd use a lord that fits a role that none of my other units can fill. And unfortunately, Master Assassin just doesn't have a role like that. I only recruit Master Assassins in Clan Eshin to use them to complete contracts.

Also, to OP: don't send Master Assassins to 1v1 anything. Only infantry lords with the Duelist description are meant to fight with other lords 1v1. Otherwise, mounted lords or monster lords.

If a lord does not have AP weapon damage, don't send them to 1v1 anything. Heroes can die but a dead lord = dead army. This is another reason why I don't like Master Assassins.

[Cacomistle]

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

Cacomistle님이 먼저 게시:

Honestly in these types of threads, yes.

If the OP says, "I think I'm using asssassin wrong, he's dying to slann. What should I be doing?" then there's no git gud required. That means OP is acknowledging they may be doing something wrong and that there may be a better way.

When OP makes definitive claims about the game saying "this unit is useless because the way I'm using it doesn't work", then they damn well better be using it in an effective way. That's a strong claim about the unit, I think it requires some strong skill and game knowledge to back it up.

The title: "Is the skaven master assassin useless?" OP asked a question, so 'git gud' is not really a good answer to the question. You use 'git gud' to make fun of ridiculous statements that end with a full stop.

It's normal to find OPs make upset statements, they just lost a battle after all, when they're expecting a victory.

The name "Master Assassin" implies strongly what that lord is used for. But personally, I found Assassin heroes more useful than Master Assassins. I mean, sure a Master Assassin has ranged attacks. But you can only have one Master Assassin, while you can have several Assassin heroes. Out of all the Skaven lords, Master Assassins are almost useless by comparison. I'd take the Skaven Warlord over the Master Assassin, personally.

Skaven already have tons of sniper units, the most commonly used ones even outrange the Master Assassin. And since Master Assassins were introduced with the Eshin DLC; Eshin's Gutter Runners etc all have AP missiles while the Master Assassin doesn't get AP missiles.

I'd take a Grey Seer over a Master Assassin any time.

If a Master Assassin then fails to 1v1 an enemy lord then I'd really begin to question its viability.

Taking all of this into account, one can understand OP's tone. However, I think the title with the ? mark should imply he's more willing to learn than we think. :)

But yeah, I would take a Grey Seer over a Master Assassin. I think only the Grey Seer (Plague) gets The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell, that's an incredibly powerful spell.

I'd use a Skaven Warlock lord but I like Warlock Engineers for their army buffs. So like Cacomistle said, I'd use a lord that fits a role that none of my other units can fill. And unfortunately, Master Assassin just doesn't have a role like that. I only recruit Master Assassins in Clan Eshin to use them to complete contracts.

"He is getting rekt by a slann mage priest. Just wtf." That's not a question. You don't say "just wtf" when you're asking a question.

I don't really like them either, but I would acknowledge first of all that dueling a slan mage is not their best use, and I haven't really used them enough to even know what they're good for (ruins magic, doomwheels, and greyseers are 3 of the things I find coolest about skaven, so I always recruit either grey seers or warlock masters).

Also there's plenty of lords that can win 1v1s without ap damage. Vlad is an obvious one, but also I think the bloodlines lords don't have ap till they get a dragon mount and both the blood dragon and lahmian lord (at higher levels at least) can win duels. Against a slann specifically dwarf lords would probably do it, because of high md vs low ma, and magic resist vs magic attacks.

[halogamb]

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

Also, to OP: don't send Master Assassins to 1v1 anything. Only infantry lords with the Duelist description are meant to fight with other lords 1v1. Otherwise, mounted lords or monster lords.

If a lord does not have AP weapon damage, don't send them to 1v1 anything. Heroes can die but a dead lord = dead army. This is another reason why I don't like Master Assassins.

Master Assassin has duelist and Anti-Infantry. Your description here suggests you don't know what their purpose is despite everything else. To address the OP again in this regard, Slann i'm pretty sure count as large and mounted, directly against what the Master Assassin excels at fighting.

[YMFTCTB]

halogamb님이 먼저 게시:

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

Also, to OP: don't send Master Assassins to 1v1 anything. Only infantry lords with the Duelist description are meant to fight with other lords 1v1. Otherwise, mounted lords or monster lords.

If a lord does not have AP weapon damage, don't send them to 1v1 anything. Heroes can die but a dead lord = dead army. This is another reason why I don't like Master Assassins.

Master Assassin has duelist and Anti-Infantry. Your description here suggests you don't know what their purpose is despite everything else.

for a second i assumed you got the master and normal one mixed up, i then checked and you're right

[halogamb]

ReaperBoy909님이 먼저 게시:

halogamb님이 먼저 게시:

Master Assassin has duelist and Anti-Infantry. Your description here suggests you don't know what their purpose is despite everything else.

for a second i assumed you got the master and normal one mixed up, i then checked and you're right

Indeed. https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_dlc14_skv_cha_master_assassin_0%26r%3D0%26v%3D5304167787849256707&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_skv_cha_assassin%26r%3D0%26v%3D5304167787849256707

[funkmonster7]

Cacomistle님이 먼저 게시:

"He is getting rekt by a slann mage priest. Just wtf." That's not a question. You don't say "just wtf" when you're asking a question.

I said this:

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

The title: "Is the skaven master assassin useless?" OP asked a question, so 'git gud' is not really a good answer to the question. You use 'git gud' to make fun of ridiculous statements that end with a full stop.

The title is a question, at least.

As for the "just wtf", I think he was just salty because he used a Duelist lord to duel and lost. And Master Assassin just isn't as useful compared to other lords. However, OP clearly used the Master Assassin wrongly, however it is easy to make that mistake because he's probably thinking the Slann Mage-Priest is a squishy fat frog of a mage lord.

Cacomistle님이 먼저 게시:

Also there's plenty of lords that can win 1v1s without ap damage. Vlad is an obvious one, but also I think the bloodlines lords don't have ap till they get a dragon mount and both the blood dragon and lahmian lord (at higher levels at least) can win duels. Against a slann specifically dwarf lords would probably do it, because of high md vs low ma, and magic resist vs magic attacks.

C'mon, you know I'm around long enough to know that. I just didn't give him the full story. Vlad is a tank; Vampire heroes in Isabella's army have +25% weapon strength i.e. at least +25% base AP damage; Dwarf Lords have insane tanking ability. Just because something doesn't have the AP sign next to its weapon damage in the unit card doesn't mean it can't stand toe-to-toe with other lords. My advice was just a general guideline. Based on how OP sent out his Master Assassin, I surmised that he's looking for a lord killer, and lord killers often should have a lot of AP damage and MA.

halogamb님이 먼저 게시:

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

Also, to OP: don't send Master Assassins to 1v1 anything. Only infantry lords with the Duelist description are meant to fight with other lords 1v1. Otherwise, mounted lords or monster lords.

If a lord does not have AP weapon damage, don't send them to 1v1 anything. Heroes can die but a dead lord = dead army. This is another reason why I don't like Master Assassins.

Master Assassin has duelist and Anti-Infantry. Your description here suggests you don't know what their purpose is despite everything else. To address the OP again in this regard, Slann i'm pretty sure count as large and mounted, directly against what the Master Assassin excels at fighting.

Another guy who reads too deep into general advice, sigh...

I'm not saying Master Assassins can't fight, but they're quite finicky for me. Most Skaven doomstacks have loads of Jezzails, Gunners, artillery... I use those to snipe out enemy lords, there's no need to use a Master Assassin just for that purpose. Master Assassin buffs Gutter Runners, Slingers etc when playing as Clan Eshin, which is great. But why would I explicitly use a Master Assassin just for +10% ranged damage on those units, when I can get a Grey Seer with devastating spells, and Warlock Engineers to do the missile damage buffing?

I'll say this again, Master Assassins aren't bad. They just are when you compare their utility with that of other lords.

By the way, you are right, the Master Assassin has the duelist tag, my bad. However, it still doesn't change the fact that out of all the lords with duelist tags, he's the most finicky one. He can play hit-and-run with an enemy lord using his shurikens. I just prefer not to use my lord to do that because putting a lord on skirmish mode is risky. Besides, with all the ranged choices in a Skaven army, why would I choose a lord to do the skirmishing?

I'll say this again, lords for me need to fill a role that other units in the army can't. Because I can only have one of them in any army. They also need to be survivable.

I have another soft requirement for lords which is they should ideally be adaptable. Because a Master Assassin lord almost always needs some Gutter Runners/Slingers to make use of his unique army skills, I don't use Master Assassins all that much. The only time I use such an army is when I'm playing Snikch, and Snikch already has his own Gutter doomstack. His second army would be one that can siege properly, which means artillery. Thus, that second army won't have use of skirmish units like Gutter Runners. And thus, I don't use a Master Assassin lord.

By the time I have use for one, I might as well field artillery/sniper doomstacks.

I would take a Skaven Warlord over a Master Assassin because a Skaven Warlord can tank, can run away (on its Rat Ogre mount), can disrupt infantry, etc. I can't remember exactly but I don't think the Master Assassin has some cloaking spells. It's been a while since I played this game, my rig can't handle the game anymore after some previous updates. So if you'd excuse my poor memory, that would be great.

[FiftyTifty]

Obviously you need to create armies that play to a lord's strength. For mages, you have heavy spear infantry. For melee lords, you have monsters and siege. For assassin lords, you have a mix of heavy and glass cannon infantry.

[funkmonster7]

Richard Innmouth Janet Enmasse님이 먼저 게시:

For assassin lords, you have a mix of heavy and glass cannon infantry.

Of which Skaven don't have much of that to boast of...

I don't send Assassin heroes yolo into a lord 1v1, they always have backup. An Eshin Sorcerer at the start, Snikch tagging along, etc.

Another reason I don't like Master Assassins is I don't want friendly fire coming from them. Certainly not friendly fire on my Assassin heroes who are pure melee and squishy as heck. Having that high amount of ammo is quite pointless if they don't get to shoot away without worry.

[Edit] I'm wondering if Master Assassins received a buff or something because upon doing some research, they seem stronger now than I remembered. But still, I don't really like to use them because of Skaven army comps being so ranged-heavy. If I have a ranged-heavy army, I'd just snipe out the enemy lords. Master Assassin fits a particular build with a specific army comp which is why I don't like to use him. I can replace armies, but lords with exp bars are much more difficult to replace and keep their levels up.

[halogamb]

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

wall

I'm not really going to dissect a wall of text so I'll hit the relevant points. It's extremely unfair to claim you're giving general advice when you structure what you say the way you did because there was nothing general about the very specific thing you said that I quoted. If you want to doomstack with the ridiculously OP skaven ranged units, that's all well and good. Almost every faction has a way you can cheese their roster and skaven ranged is unbelievably strong right now. I don't factor in meta things like that when I analyze or play because if I did, 90& of every roster would then be sub-optimal or trash or "useless". I believe this came up with the thread about Dread Saurians a week ago too. That's really all I go into because it's obvious to me after skimming all you wrote that you and I disagree on a lot of basic fundamentals so discussing it will not go anywhere, and I don't care to try to change your views in the first place so, people can believe what they want really.

[funkmonster7]

halogamb님이 먼저 게시:

I'm not really going to dissect a wall of text so I'll hit the relevant points. It's extremely unfair to claim you're giving general advice when you structure what you say the way you did because there was nothing general about the very specific thing you said that I quoted. If you want to doomstack with the ridiculously OP skaven ranged units, that's all well and good. Almost every faction has a way you can cheese their roster and skaven ranged is unbelievably strong right now. I don't factor in meta things like that when I analyze or play because if I did, 90& of every roster would then be sub-optimal or trash or "useless". I believe this came up with the thread about Dread Saurians a week ago too. That's really all I go into because it's obvious to me after skimming all you wrote that you and I disagree on a lot of basic fundamentals so discussing it will not go anywhere, and I don't care to try to change your views in the first place so, people can believe what they want really.

snip

[Edit] Oh what the ♥♥♥♥ do I care.

[halogamb]

funkmonster7님이 먼저 게시:

halogamb님이 먼저 게시:

I'm not really going to dissect a wall of text so I'll hit the relevant points. It's extremely unfair to claim you're giving general advice when you structure what you say the way you did because there was nothing general about the very specific thing you said that I quoted. If you want to doomstack with the ridiculously OP skaven ranged units, that's all well and good. Almost every faction has a way you can cheese their roster and skaven ranged is unbelievably strong right now. I don't factor in meta things like that when I analyze or play because if I did, 90& of every roster would then be sub-optimal or trash or "useless". I believe this came up with the thread about Dread Saurians a week ago too. That's really all I go into because it's obvious to me after skimming all you wrote that you and I disagree on a lot of basic fundamentals so discussing it will not go anywhere, and I don't care to try to change your views in the first place so, people can believe what they want really.

snip

[Edit] Oh what the ♥♥♥♥ do I care.

My thoughts exactly. To be more succinct, I don't because your long post goes off on several off-topic tangents and even if I pulled it apart the contradictions and inaccuracies, I doubt it would be worth the time or effort.

[arsenic]

viryu9님이 먼저 게시:

Toby Larone님이 먼저 게시:

Go after infantry characters you have rattling guns for anything else.

It was my first thought when I saw the 4 Rattling Gunners. Why weren't they focus firing on the Slann?

I did a Pestilens campaign couple days ago, with a good setup of ratlings, mortars and priests, I didn't have much use of any lords. Summoned fodder tanks, ratlings and mortars dps, lord looks cute.

dude skrolk is sooooo cute, im glad im not the only one who noticed