Dark Elves army composition

[Green]

tl;dr: I am looking for a good late game Dark Elves army composition to go up against any army

So I'm 130 turns into a Very Hard Morathi campaign and all is going well but there are a few things that I still don't understand about Dark Elves.

1) Early game I had a couple of tough battles where I had to beat 10+ dinos with no access to Black Guard. I had no real counters to those dinos other than Shades and Reaper Bolt Throwers and hence suffered heavy losses in spite of winning.

2) Black Guard fail to inspire me like Phoenix Guard do. Sure, they will do their job, but that's it. They're not the melee monsters Phoenix Guards are. They also can die to focused ranged fire. Phoenix Guard are more durable. Maybe because of their physical resistance/ward save idk. At the same time, Swordmasters have so much going for them: Bronze Shield, Anti-infantry, Melee Defense buff and armor piercing. High Melee Defense on an elite anti-infantry is a HUGE deal. Dark Elves have no counterpart to this. Ah yeah, Murderous Prowess is useless in every battle btw, it always activated exactly when I routed the whole enemy army (...). Besides, all buffs you get other than Stamina and Weapon Strength are useless (I think you get stuff like 20% bonus ranged strength, more speed... who needs that when you're in melee already?!)

3) The lack of a good reliable cavalry means that you cannot play your Shades on the flanks as easily because they can get charged (and they will win most engagements yes, but suffer quite a few losses in the process). So the way I use shades is currently either a) frontline vanguard and then retreat, or like you would with regular archers. It seems difficult to make them flank when Dark Elves have no good "butcher" mobility units (like High Elves Star Dragon/Dragon Princes).

4) Hydra Breath is very gimmicky to use. It goes in a straight line so a lot of times you want her to be on high ground, yet the very short range makes it difficult to be on high ground and in range in the first place. The breath attack can do amazing damage but it's more difficult to use than the High Elf counterpart (Moon Dragon or whatever your preferred type is). In melee it's also good but more of a tank type of good, allowing your Shades to do their job. Not as good at pursuing as a High Elf Dragon either.

5) Cold One Knights are good, but man! I always have to watch their HP and that's something I don't like. "Anti-large" screams of "charge me into another cavalry", yet the rampage mechanic imposes that you charge them at least 2v1 to prevent them from taking heavy casualties, which kinda defeats the purpose. They are also slower than most other cavalry units.

6) Morathi magic is kinda uninspiring. Leadership de-buff is kinda pointless on Very Hard. The Armor/Weapon damage de-buff, while not bad, is too low to be worth casting. The direct unit damage spell (the first one she has) is good and costs little, so you want to cast it on cooldown but even after all unlock you don't cast it as often as you would like. Pit of Shades, this is a big disappointment, most of the time this spell does nothing. I tried everything, cast it on melee, cast it as the enemy army approaches me. It does okayish damage but nowhere good enough to justify the cost. Soulstealer also seems to not be worth it. Overall, I prefer the Dark Elf magic most of the time (better spells overall from Melee de-buff to Bladewind to Doombolt).

7) Corsairs are like... ok, I guess. Their stats are actually pretty decent and particularly noteworthy is the amazing speed. This is an archer chasing unit and I heard they win against Chaos Warriors too (haven't tested myself). The problem is that they are anti-infantry with swords and low Melee Defense, so as soon as you get a cavalry/chariot/monster/super elite infantry with high armor engagement, they lose. High Elf Lothers Sea Guard don't suffer from this problem as much because of the high Melee Defense. Also, a lot of times, Silver Shield is better than 80 Armor against ranged.


Overall, I can see how they're strong in multiplayer, but they fail to inspire me in SP. For the High Elves, I found the following late game army: 6x Swordmasters, 4x Phoenix Guard, 2x Bolt Throwers, 3-4x Lothern Sea Guard, 5x Star Dragons/Dragon Princes to be effective against practically anything. You can reduce some SM and put more PG in but this army has everything: mobility, cavalry, you can add a mage with lore of life to make your Dragon Princes win even against Cold One Dread Knights (the only real threat to this army in the whole 4 races of TWW2). With Dark Elves, I fail to find an equivalent, "fun to play" army in campaign that has a chance against everything.

Any tips of what a good late game DE army could look like?

[Heretic]

executioners are key in any DE army

[firespier]

i am generally using 2 reaper bolt thowers 6-7 shades/crossbows , 1-2 hydra/black dragon,2-3 heroes/lord, the rest line infantry (roughly half spear half sword), i just cant stand DE cav though chariot could be somewhat decent and mouted archers maybe

[Green]

Originally posted by Heretic:

executioners are key in any DE army

really? What do they have that would make them worthwhile over Swordmasters? (not sarcastic, genuine question)

Originally posted by firespier:

i am generally using 2 reaper bolt thowers 6-7 shades/crossbows , 1-2 hydra/black dragon,2-3 heroes/lord, the rest line infantry (roughly half spear half sword), i just cant stand DE cav though chariot could be somewhat decent and mouted archers maybe

This seems a very generic army. If you field this you will get slaughtered by stuff like mono dinos or maybe even Skaven.
Especially your frontline of Spearmen and Bleakswords is very weak. No way you play that army on a difficulty higher than Normal.

[™1Shot1KiLL®]

5 darkshards 4 guards 4 executioners 3 cold one knights 2 monsters 2 artilery. is a beast campagne army. too expencive for a 10 000 point multiplayer army ofcourse

[Green]

Originally posted by ™1Shot1KiLL®:

5 darkshards 4 guards 4 executioners 3 cold one knights 2 monsters 2 artilery. is a beast campagne army. too expencive for a 10 000 point multiplayer army ofcourse

Opinion on Shades vs. Darkshards? I find Darkshards to be a little lacking in range (considering their reload time is also extremely slow). Shades can flank a little and be nasty but most of the time I found myself still having them in my backline (because the enemy has an Eagle, or Cavalry, or Chariots, or High Elf Archers...).

Obviously Shades have better speed and Ranged Damage, but somehow they fail to be the flanking unit I remember them to be in Tabletop.

[™1Shot1KiLL®]

Originally posted by Green:

Originally posted by ™1Shot1KiLL®:

5 darkshards 4 guards 4 executioners 3 cold one knights 2 monsters 2 artilery. is a beast campagne army. too expencive for a 10 000 point multiplayer army ofcourse

Opinion on Shades vs. Darkshards? I find Darkshards to be a little lacking in range (considering their reload time is also extremely slow). Shades can flank a little and be nasty but most of the time I found myself still having them in my backline (because the enemy has an Eagle, or Cavalry, or Chariots, or High Elf Archers...).

Obviously Shades have better speed and Ranged Damage, but somehow they fail to be the flanking unit I remember them to be in Tabletop.

thay can fight after thay finish there ammo. or just defend them selves if flanked.

[Kzarekh]

I usually have the following units:

1x Morathi/Lord
1x Sorceress (arcane conduit)
1x Death Hag
6x Black Guard of Naggarond
2x Har Ganeth Executioners ( witch elves in mid-game)
5x Darkshards (shields) or Shades (great weapons)
1x Cold One Dread Knights
3x War Hydras (sometimes 1-2 dragons)

While Malekith can inflict himself huge casualties, Morathi is more about synergy, in particular thanks to a wide range of hexes/support abilities. By far, I prefer her Pit of Shades spell to the uncertain Bladewind.

I really like the War Hydra as well. Thanks to its regeneration ability, it's an ideal candidate for the Power of Darkness spell. Once placed on the side of the battle front, I feel its fire breath attack is also more reliable than those used by dragons.

[Jabroni]

Pit of shades is a battle winner for me. It does so much by itself and I just got an item that comes with it bound.

Also the rite explosion is insane. The black arc spells suck so far but I haven't tested their upgraded versions. It would be nice to be able to breach a wall or knock down a tower like the vault spell HE get.

[Xaia]

My main army was~
-Morathi
-"Tanky" DeathHag
-15 Shades Great Weapon
-3 black dragons.

It was unfair. Great Weapon shades are the best unit in the game in my opinion

[Wyvern]

i usually go dirt cheap with my armies, and the vast majority of my late game forces are dreadspears+darkshards+reaper bolt throwers, with some witches, shades or corsairs thrown in as time permits. The only exception is home defense armies, since that's where my best unit producing structures usually are(no global recruit is a bit of a killer, im not going to waste turns going back to base/waiting for a new forward base just to get fancy units).

I'll also point out that simply comparing units in a 1-1 basis with high elves isn't entirely fair, you need to look at how they function as part of the whole. High elf ranged, while good vs squishy targets, is pretty abysmal vs anything with decent armor, and unlike skaven, they lack access to massive amounts of debuffs outside of spells(queeks warpstone armor and weeping blade on death runners make slingers stupidly good). Darkshards pulp basically everything you face in seconds, and have shields to boot. Shades annihilate enemies even faster. Dark elf infantry is basically just there to hold the line, and for that, dreadspears+witches are adequate(witches rampage effect is amazing). Not saying they cant go melee heavy/be powerful in melee, but it's not mandatory. In comparison, once you start dealing with more elite armies, high elves are much more reliant on their melee infantry to deal with enemy armor.

[Shandor]

Well Shades are the KEy here. First then can counter Big Creatures and 2nd. Yes they can get charged.. and? Shades with 2 handers kill every Hound or light Cav they charge them. In some of my games they even dealt with Bretonian Knights.

Shades are the best Ranged Unit this game has. because they dont only have a good range and AP dmg, they can also deal with close combat situations. If you are out of ammo or get charged.

And Dark Paladins are very good Cav. Yeah they can get enraged but they still do alot dmg and have alot armor.

If you want one of the best Melee Infantry dont take Black Guards. Take Executeners. They kill Chosen Warriors in 1vs1 and still got 50% life left. They are some of the most Brutal Anti Infantry Units in the Game. If they get assisted by Hydra, Dragon or Witchelves with Hag on Cauldron they are unstopable. Witchelves can kill all the low Armor stuff very fast and get a "ok" Wardsave in lategame.
I use Blackguards really rare. maybe 2 of them in an army.

I dont use and Bleakswords, Darkshards, Dreadspears after turn 30 around anymore.

[Gamefever]

OP,

Morathi's Damage Debuff is an "area of effect" spell, so its pretty good stuff considering it hits a large area and lasts like 44 seconds. It works really well on that initial front line engagement...
Now uh the amount of damage is like debuff like 30% but thats not really the 30% of the other units damage its 30 points, its fairly severe....Its also not just damage its also something else if you've stacked enough points in the skill.

But I cant really say I've had to deal with 12 dino's all at once cringe ><

I dont know how you built Morathi but I ussually build mine for spell casting and its been entertaining.
Myself I've been playing around with the army composition so Im also interested in how people reply to your inquiry.

Best of luck.

[Kaia]

Shades only really come into their own if you don't bring a lot of them. If your ranged contingent consists of two or three regiments sure, Shades bring it home because the reload speed is meaningful - you NEED to get those shots in or they're doing nothing so the improvement is welcome and with so few of them they'll run out of ammo long before they run out of people to kill so you might actually USE their (overpriced) melee capabilities.

If you're going heavy on the archery (which you should - every other faction in the vortex has you beat on infantry but NOBODY can beat your archery, why would you fight battles on someone else's terms?) then shades are garbage.

The fanbois need to take a seat and accept that they're just not worth the extra cost for such a marginal improvement in the one thing they should be doing - shooting. From start to end, if they draw their swords you screwed up.

Eight darkshards turn four units of anything trash and gold alike to mulch in about 30s flat. If it needs to die faster than that, reduce the number of units you're shooting - go 4 on 1 and watch it die in 15s. Dragons melt under that kind of firepower.

"But shades can do that tooooo!" yes at a MUCH higher cost, with greatly reduced resisilence to taking fire (levelling the playing field against high elves, whose archers are MILES cheaer than shades - again, why would you do this?) meaning you've got less stacks and less shooting over the course of the battle because your shades keep getting slaughtered by counter-archery.

Cold Ones exist to be an expensive but low-maintainence counter to cavalry - throw them at the flanking force. They'll at very least keep them occupied and out of your back line even if they lose because rampage means they just don't quit. Use them to free yourself up to micro other bits of the battle. If you'd rather focus your attention there then play footsie with the blackguard while the darkshards shoot them dead and forgo the cav.

Corsairs are a good unit for pinning low tier infantry. That's their thing. They've got very good armor for such a low tier unit. If the enemy doesn't have access to AP or very high damage attacks yet then they're superb and well worth their cost. If the enemy DOES have AP or very high damage attacks then they're contributing nothing spearmen wouldn't for less and if you've got the money to burn, get Blackguard who do a better job of avoiding the damage in the first place.

The only archers Blackguard need to fear are AP as these can do a lot of damage to them in a very short space of time. As a dark elf you ought to know this very well. They will suffer under sustained non-AP fire just like anyone else but they're always better off than other unit in your roster in the same scenario - once the AP stuff is dead, turn your massed crossbows onto the archers and stop the rain.

[Shandor]

Originally posted by Kaia:

Shades only really come into their own if you don't bring a lot of them. If your ranged contingent consists of two or three regiments sure, Shades bring it home because the reload speed is meaningful - you NEED to get those shots in or they're doing nothing so the improvement is welcome and with so few of them they'll run out of ammo long before they run out of people to kill so you might actually USE their (overpriced) melee capabilities.

If you're going heavy on the archery (which you should - every other faction in the vortex has you beat on infantry but NOBODY can beat your archery, why would you fight battles on someone else's terms?) then shades are garbage.

The fanbois need to take a seat and accept that they're just not worth the extra cost for such a marginal improvement in the one thing they should be doing - shooting. From start to end, if they draw their swords you screwed up.

Eight darkshards turn four units of anything trash and gold alike to mulch in about 30s flat. If it needs to die faster than that, reduce the number of units you're shooting - go 4 on 1 and watch it die in 15s. Dragons melt under that kind of firepower.

"But shades can do that tooooo!" yes at a MUCH higher cost, with greatly reduced resisilence to taking fire (levelling the playing field against high elves, whose archers are MILES cheaer than shades - again, why would you do this?) meaning you've got less stacks and less shooting over the course of the battle because your shades keep getting slaughtered by counter-archery.

Cold Ones exist to be an expensive but low-maintainence counter to cavalry - throw them at the flanking force. They'll at very least keep them occupied and out of your back line even if they lose because rampage means they just don't quit. Use them to free yourself up to micro other bits of the battle. If you'd rather focus your attention there then play footsie with the blackguard while the darkshards shoot them dead and forgo the cav.

Corsairs are a good unit for pinning low tier infantry. That's their thing. They've got very good armor for such a low tier unit. If the enemy doesn't have access to AP or very high damage attacks yet then they're superb and well worth their cost. If the enemy DOES have AP or very high damage attacks then they're contributing nothing spearmen wouldn't for less and if you've got the money to burn, get Blackguard who do a better job of avoiding the damage in the first place.

The only archers Blackguard need to fear are AP as these can do a lot of damage to them in a very short space of time. As a dark elf you ought to know this very well. They will suffer under sustained non-AP fire just like anyone else but they're always better off than other unit in your roster in the same scenario - once the AP stuff is dead, turn your massed crossbows onto the archers and stop the rain.

You dont need lots of Shades. You need only 5-6. Thats what i got in every army.
They can vanguard, hide and hit when and where they want. They do lots more dmg then Darkshards against anything that wears an armor.. thats almost everything in late game.
And they fight alot close combat in my games. Because they are a Hybrid Unit they can do it and its useful.
Sometimes its better to charge an enemy in his back then stand there and shoot.
They also can climb up a City wall, kill the denenfing archers up there and shoot from the walls inside the City. Thats something no other Archer could do in an efffective way except for Seaguard since they are hybrid uunits too. But they have a short range so standing up the Wall and shoot down isnt thier thing.

[Kaia]

They do not, in fact, do more damage than Darkshards. They have a faster reload speed and so their normalised damage over time which is what the damage stat on the card represents (just read the tooltip) is higher.

Their per shot damage is exactly the same. So your calculation is wrong and everything you're concluding from it is also wrong.

The correct calculation is shots fired x number of shooters x damage per bolt.

And that's where the fallacy of 'omg shaaaades' falls down.

It only gets worse when you start including techs - Darkshards benefit from a cumulative 20% bonus to missile damage from tech. Shades only get it to their melee damage and a 10% improvement to reload speed.

Hi, I wrote the literal book on Dark Elf strategy. And while there're many that work the foundational assumption that shades are omfgamazing is just...wrong.

Every second doing anything that is not shooting makes Shades reload speed less and less important. Because that's all it does. Reduce the interval between shots.

If they're skirmishing about, they're not shooting.

If they're playing hide and seek with cav, they're not shooting.

If they're dead because they were shot to pieces by high elf archers that outnumbered them 3:1 for the same cost, they're not shooting.

And the idea that you'd ever throw shades into a rear charge if you have ammunition left to spend just highlights your failure to grasp the engine. Why introduce up to an 80% miss chance (Shade melee attack being less than stellar compared with the defense of these elite high tier units you insist they can fight in melee with) when you could shoot them dead much more quickly and suffer no casualties in return?

And blackguard can climb walls just fine.