Greatswords should have charge defense against all

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

IRL greatswords could be braced like a halberd or spear with similar range which would make them very hard to penetrate with a charge. They were used as the defenders of standard bearers and commanders for this reason.

Also against infantry they could fend off multiple opponents at once, kind of hard to charge into a formation if they're creating a killing field with their swings

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Ok, so then in the post I quoted you admitted you were wrong and that's not how zweihanders were used against cavalry charges. Given that greatswords in this game have nothing but greatsword wielding soldiers, they shouldn't have charge defense against cavalry.

/thread

Nope. The argument was that a zweihander could be used against cavalry the same way a halberd or spear could be with a stabbing motion.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Falaris:

Pike is usually considered the anti-cavalry weapon. Unlike the video Mr. Neko links at start, the pikes in warhammer 2 - the ones with charge defence - are 10-20' long, not the 6' of the comparison video.

The primary mercenaries of the 15th century were the Swiss, and since 1506 the Pontifical Swiss Guard has protected the Vatican and the Pope. Pikes are good, yes? Again, much longer than the little thing Matt pokes around with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KbroTkaey0

During the 17th century, pikemen's primary role were to defend musketeers from cavalry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)#/media/File:Pikeniere_Wallenstein-Festspiele_Memmingen.jpg

So - pikes ARE anti-cavalry, and they are good at it.

So, what about zweihanders and cavalry? Historically, they were not used that way, and at the time they were used, that 6' reach is not very impressive against the 14-18' reach of a lance or 10-25' reach of a pike. The cavalry could attack the greatsword troops with impunity. Reach was imperative, and the Swiss Guard switched out their halberds for pikes when up against the Italian lancers of the gendarmerie. HRE, the premier user of zweihanders, had 'Doppelsoldners' - double pay men - who used them. Doppelsoldners didn't all use zweihanders, but all zweihanders were used by Doppelsoldners. They more often used pikes, and also used a sidearm. Their primary role was anti-pikemen, which at the time was the standard troops, but as a last resort. Unlike warhammer 2, you didn't have massed formations of them, you'd have a couple standing in a pike formation or around the ensign.

This information is from the grognards at:
https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4221

I believe the thing about using greatswords against horses were called a 'braveheartism'. (As per the entertaining but highly inaccurate movie).

So - historically, zweihanders have not been used like they are being used in warhammer 2. That means, history is of limited use in figuring out how they should be used in WH2. However, that doesn't matter too much, since they weren't a wonder weapon against cavalry.

In warhammer 2 Greatswords have the best armor of any Empire infantry. There is no infantry against which they are weak. Being without shields, they are weak against ranged, but due to their armor, mostly firearms. That and cavalry is their only real weakness.

It does not seem conducive to balance to ask for them not to be weak to cavalry.

The Swiss guard use halberds, zweihander or Partisans.

The Swiss mercenaries relied on overwhelming numbers with large levies to beat smaller forces, not the pike itself which was there as the weapon for the lower quality recruits so they could protect the ranged weapons used to do the killing. If cavalry came in then guess what they used to defeat them? Halberds and Zweihanders.

The later Landesnecht the empire is based off used significantly fewer pikes of their overall forces which is why they displaced the Swiss.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Happyscientist:

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Ok, so then in the post I quoted you admitted you were wrong and that's not how zweihanders were used against cavalry charges. Given that greatswords in this game have nothing but greatsword wielding soldiers, they shouldn't have charge defense against cavalry.

/thread

It's an obvious bait thread I'm shocked people keep going on with it.

Yeah, you can look at the guys post history and see he does this sort of "faux historic complaint" thread for a multitude of games, then lies/misconstrues/spews imbecilic nonsense in response to whatever points are made disproving him.

[Michael Daemon]

Originally posted by AVGAMER:

This is just silly, sure a half sword-ed zweihander is a strong deterrent to cavalry but nowhere nearenough to to deter a charging dragon or hydra. large in warhammer includes 50ft mammoths and castle sized dragons.

The ♥♥♥♥ good is a spear against a castle sized dragon? May as well try to fight it off with a flag pole, get the same result. No game should definitely have another class size, "Large as a horse" and "Oh ♥♥♥♥ no!".

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Michael Daemon:

Originally posted by AVGAMER:

This is just silly, sure a half sword-ed zweihander is a strong deterrent to cavalry but nowhere nearenough to to deter a charging dragon or hydra. large in warhammer includes 50ft mammoths and castle sized dragons.

The ♥♥♥♥ good is a spear against a castle sized dragon? May as well try to fight it off with a flag pole, get the same result. No game should definitely have another class size, "Large as a horse" and "Oh ♥♥♥♥ no!".

Lol yeah.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by Happyscientist:

It's an obvious bait thread I'm shocked people keep going on with it.

Yeah, you can look at the guys post history and see he does this sort of "faux historic complaint" thread for a multitude of games, then lies/misconstrues/spews imbecilic nonsense in response to whatever points are made disproving him.

You're only saying that because I dunked on you and you're still refusing to admit i'm right.

[Falaris]

Originally posted by Neko/Kitsune Hybrid in the USMC:

The Swiss guard use halberds, zweihander or Partisans.

The Swiss mercenaries relied on overwhelming numbers with large levies to beat smaller forces, not the pike itself which was there as the weapon for the lower quality recruits so they could protect the ranged weapons used to do the killing. If cavalry came in then guess what they used to defeat them? Halberds and Zweihanders.

The later Landesnecht the empire is based off used significantly fewer pikes of their overall forces which is why they displaced the Swiss.

This is an absurd statement. No army has fielded more than 0.5-1% of its numbers as greatswords, and their use was against pike, not cavalry.

Yes, the Swiss guard used flamberges. They used two per formation of several hundred.

Okay, never mind. Not going further with this. Have fun.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Falaris:

Originally posted by Neko/Kitsune Hybrid in the USMC:

The Swiss guard use halberds, zweihander or Partisans.

The Swiss mercenaries relied on overwhelming numbers with large levies to beat smaller forces, not the pike itself which was there as the weapon for the lower quality recruits so they could protect the ranged weapons used to do the killing. If cavalry came in then guess what they used to defeat them? Halberds and Zweihanders.

The later Landesnecht the empire is based off used significantly fewer pikes of their overall forces which is why they displaced the Swiss.

This is an absurd statement. No army has fielded more than 0.5-1% of its numbers as greatswords, and their use was against pike, not cavalry.

Yes, the Swiss guard used flamberges. They used two per formation of several hundred.

Okay, never mind. Not going further with this. Have fun.

And the other 130 men use halberds?

The Zweihander is a champions weapon, the Halberd is what you'd use if you were part of that elite guarding force but not skilled or experienced enough to warrant having an expensive sword commissioned for you.

[NamThunder]

Greatswords are designed to attack, not defend. You cannot brace yourself against an enemy's charge with it.

[olstar18]

Why are you still feeding this troll.

[Dregora]

Originally posted by Neko/Kitsune Hybrid in the USMC:

Originally posted by Dregora:

No, cav charges rely on the formation to break. If it breaks, they'll generally keep running.


Simple analogy but a guy can actually stop a charging elephant. The trick is to not run like an idiot. Stand your ground and do not move or run or whatever. In most cases the elephant will stop charging, because it's so used to animals running away when it charges, that it has no idea what to do when someone doesn't run.

It's just a simple analogy (you can find it on youtube if you want examples of this), but cav charges usually (when it's a head on clash) work the same way. If a formation breaks because they see a bunch of horses charging at them, the horses will see an opening in between and keep running. Don't quote me on this, but I assume that's why it's usually called ''shock cav''.

Basically what i'm saying is that charges tend to rely on the fear they bring with. Horses rarely actually blindly ran into pikes, assuming they saw them.

You should go be a rodeo clown and stand authoritatively in front of a horse because you think it'll stop it. You'd get a Darwin award after they read your obituary.

I said simple analogy. Change the elephant into calvary and change the one dude into infantry.

Go look up articles. If a formation of infantry wouldn't budge and they keep formation, calvary rarely would charge blindly into it.

If you genuinely think horses are that stupid, then it's quite clear you're trolling at this point.

[Landsknecht und Deutscher Ritter]

Originally posted by Dregora:

Originally posted by Neko/Kitsune Hybrid in the USMC:

You should go be a rodeo clown and stand authoritatively in front of a horse because you think it'll stop it. You'd get a Darwin award after they read your obituary.

I said simple analogy. Change the elephant into calvary and change the one dude into infantry.

Go look up articles. If a formation of infantry wouldn't budge and they keep formation, calvary rarely would charge blindly into it.

If you genuinely think horses are that stupid, then it's quite clear you're trolling at this point.

Horses are trained animals so even if they weren't normally willing to stampede into a group of soldiers in the wild they would be if they were commanded to by their rider. You can order a horse to jump off a cliff if you aren't careful. The fact you can't produce any evidence is just icing on the cake.

[A.Pot]

Well the historical basis of the Greatsword, the Doppelsoldner were primarily used to break pike formations but that is infantry vs infantry. Can you link any specific historical instance where a unit of just Doppelsoldner were able to fend off a full on cavalry charge of men armed with lances?

[Dregora]

Originally posted by Neko/Kitsune Hybrid in the USMC:

Originally posted by Dregora:

I said simple analogy. Change the elephant into calvary and change the one dude into infantry.

Go look up articles. If a formation of infantry wouldn't budge and they keep formation, calvary rarely would charge blindly into it.

If you genuinely think horses are that stupid, then it's quite clear you're trolling at this point.

Horses are trained animals so even if they weren't normally willing to stampede into a group of soldiers in the wild they would be if they were commanded to by their rider. You can order a horse to jump off a cliff if you aren't careful. The fact you can't produce any evidence is just icing on the cake.

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/38409/physics-of-a-heavy-cavalry-charge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_(warfare)



"Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies, or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy"


Here's your icing. Now stop pretending you know what you're talking about.


If you genuinely and sincerely believe it's a good tactic to have a group of horsemen ride into a group of infantry in formation and they do not break, that would result in losses on both sides. Stop watching Lord of the rings and think those cav charges are genuine. Cav charges do not ride through formations with that much ease UNLESS they break before the clash occurs.

[Happyscientist]

Originally posted by Dregora:

Originally posted by Neko/Kitsune Hybrid in the USMC:

Horses are trained animals so even if they weren't normally willing to stampede into a group of soldiers in the wild they would be if they were commanded to by their rider. You can order a horse to jump off a cliff if you aren't careful. The fact you can't produce any evidence is just icing on the cake.

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/38409/physics-of-a-heavy-cavalry-charge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_(warfare)



"Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies, or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy"


Here's your icing. Now stop pretending you know what you're talking about.

He is trolling and you are falling for it, he isnt gonna stop until you get boring. Stop pretending you dont know that.