Order vs Destruction vs Chaos vs Undeath.

[Aparajita]

Title. What nations fit into what factions?

Order: Empire, Brettonia, Kislev, Border Princes, Dwarves, High Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen.

Destruction: Goblins, Night Goblins, Orcs, Black Orcs, Ogres.

Chaos: Beastmen, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos.

Undeath: Vampire Counts, Vampirates, Servants of Nagash.

Where does the Dark Elves, the Tomb Kings, Chaos Dwarves, and other factions sit from a Lore perspective if not an in game perspective.

[DarkFenix]

Wood Elves, Lizardmen, and Skaven don't fit into any faction grouping. Wood Elves are neutral, though they hate Chaos a lot more than they hate humans. Lizardmen follow The Great Plan, which has no place for most other races, regardless of which side they're on.

And the Skaven are a faction unto themselves, after all they outnumber all the other races in the world, combined, a thousand times over. They might make an alliance of convenience with other evil factions, but they're just as likely to stab them in the back as work with them (more likely in fact).

Tomb Kings are another faction unto themselves, largely neutral except for their absolute hatred for the Nagash-aligned factions.

Dark Elves, again, faction of their own, they really don't care whose day they ♥♥♥♥ up.

No idea about Chaos Dwarves, but I'd imagine their interests align with the other Chaos factions, insofar as any Chaos factions ever get along.

[A.Pot]

This isn't Age of Sigmar where that applies. Its just Order vs Destruction in Warhammer Fantasy

[davidsmithpsn]

The used to have forces of order which was who you would think they were, WE, Empire, Brets, HE, lizards. Destruction which was pretty much all undead and chaos armies with skaven, DEs and Orcs with neutral with OK and TKs. There was a little chart somewhere in the back of the 8th BRB or the 7th Big Rule Book In fantasy that showed ever where went. Wood Elves would be it reluctantly would help other races if they could get something out of it. Which not being killed by undead or chaos was one of those things.

However I'm guessing it will be Order be the people mentioned. All undead, even tomb kings which I don't like because TK where kinda of a stay the F off my land and screw vampires although their hatred for vamps got kind of lost as they figured out about the other races (it didn't go down in hate but they hated everyone else too) All chaos and everyone else in destruction. I don't know where skaven is falling into. Skaven did go with chaos in the end times and they kinda of a off shoot of beastsmen with their own god. My money is on skaven. I don't mind the idea of huge faction allances but I would love to see more random groups Like Empire Vampires and Orcs against Chaos but I don't think that is how they are going to go. Ogres don't mind chaos, they look at getting an extra arm or two as a cool thing but don't like their gods. Chaos dwarfs going to chaos, Nagash would be undead and it's pretty easy to see where anyone else would go.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Probably controversial, but I'd put Dark Elves with Order. They hate the servants of Chaos and the only thing they want to destroy is the High Elves. They don't get on with the other Order factions, but that's quite common- look at the Dwarfs and High Elves, for instance.

[Jarges]

Dark Elves in destruction, Tomb kings in undeath, CHAOS dwarfs in chaos.

[fmalfeas]

Technically, you could say Tomb Kings are Order. Unfortunately for everyone else, they don't play that well with others because in the eyes of Settra, it's ALL /his/ land. Chaos is forbidden to destroy it, because it's his. Everyone else should become his vassal and live lives of luxury and plenty under the megalomaniac tyrant king (who personally finds having all his subjects living large a way to flaunt how awesome he is, fortunately for them). If they /won't/ become his vassal...well, then they're trespassing on his land. Because SETTRA RULES EVERYTHING!.

That puts the TKs in a weird place. They'll never side with Chaos, they bloody well hate Nagash (except Arkhan and his crew) for screwing up their immortality, but everyone else is either squatting on Settra's property, or damaging it, and refusing to kneel.

There's likely very special hatred for the Von Carstein line if they found out who Vlad really is, since he was a Nehekaran general that sided with Neferata against Khalida. Sure, he eventually betrayed the Nagash crew by tampering with the ring that let him command other vampires automatically (but could control him too) so it couldn't control him anymore, and then moved north, but they're not really a forgiving group.

[BigJ]

Order:Dark elves(I would list them as chaos till the end times), lizardmen(they hate chaos)
Chaos:Chaos dwarves, skaven(if you think the terribly written age of sigmar id cannon)
Destruction:Skaven (if you refuse age of sigmar)
Undead:Tomb kings(Like the vampire counts they do fight chaos)

[wrought82]

id rather the "factions" werent too solid. race relation/aversion should be much more consequential and relation based on treaties and wars should be slowly diminishing not growing. at the same time willingness to make nonaggression and alliances should be much more about common enemies than relation, and trade should be completely unaffected by relation and only affected by war.
There arent really any "factions", there are deep rooted enmities between all factions including those in "order", factions just mean they CAN ally when faced with a common enemy, or how likely they are to do so.
There are some factions, like chaos, that cant and shouldnt be able to form alliances and only should be able to make NA pacts in extraordinary circumstances, and some like greenskin, wood elves and lizardmen where nonaggression isnt beyond the pale but alliances would only come about in extraordinary circumstances

[BigJ]

Originally posted by wrought82:

id rather the "factions" werent too solid. race relation/aversion should be much more consequential and relation based on treaties and wars should be slowly diminishing not growing. at the same time willingness to make nonaggression and alliances should be much more about common enemies than relation, and trade should be completely unaffected by relation and only affected by war.
There arent really any "factions", there are deep rooted enmities between all factions including those in "order", factions just mean they CAN ally when faced with a common enemy, or how likely they are to do so.
There are some factions, like chaos, that cant and shouldnt be able to form alliances and only should be able to make NA pacts in extraordinary circumstances, and some like greenskin, wood elves and lizardmen where nonaggression isnt beyond the pale but alliances would only come about in extraordinary circumstances

That would just make long standing relationships like dwarves and the empire be meaningless, there should be some aversion and affinity specially with nations full of religious fervour like Bretonnia.

[wrought82]

on the contrary it would make it actually matter because they would have a big bonus that would be as big as any bonus they could possibly get from a few decades of aligned interests you get in the game. right now playing chaos the dwarves absolutely love me and even empire care more about me destroying sylvania than that they have just 1 settlement left after i destroyed all the others. but the century or millenia old relation between some factions would actually matter and not just make it more or less likely START good relations within the short period of war the game represents

[BigJ]

Originally posted by wrought82:

on the contrary it would make it actually matter because they would have a big bonus that would be as big as any bonus they could possibly get from a few decades of aligned interests you get in the game. right now playing chaos the dwarves absolutely love me and even empire care more about me destroying sylvania than that they have just 1 settlement left after i destroyed all the others. but the century or millenia old relation between some factions would actually matter and not just make it more or less likely START good relations within the short period of war the game represents

Didn't you judt talk about common enemy? If as chaos you were rekting norsca, in your system it would make sense for them to like you, affinity sjould be increased/decreased, I still don't get how the skaven hate each other, I get they don't trust each other but outright refusing trade deals out of it.

[wrought82]

thats what happens now. in this system order factions would have strong aversion from most factions and like now limited diplomatic options with most factions, what would be different is the war with norsca would give a set but diminishing bonus to relations to other factions at war with norsca,preferably one dependent on strength relation between the factions, ie if norsca were much stronger the bonus would be bigger. they might want to form a NA with me while they are at war with norsca but they would not 100 turns down the line still have fond memories of how i razed norsca that would far outshine the triffling matter of me also murdering half the world after that, because the fact that my aim was to eventually lay waste to their realm as well as thousands years of war would matter more

[BigJ]

Originally posted by wrought82:

thats what happens now. in this system order factions would have strong aversion from most factions and like now limited diplomatic options with most factions, what would be different is the war with norsca would give a set but diminishing bonus to relations to other factions at war with norsca,preferably one dependent on strength relation between the factions, ie if norsca were much stronger the bonus would be bigger. they might want to form a NA with me while they are at war with norsca but they would not 100 turns down the line still have fond memories of how i razed norsca that would far outshine the triffling matter of me also murdering half the world after that, because the fact that my aim was to eventually lay waste to their realm as well as thousands years of war would matter more

If I recall correctly thats how older total war titles worked, no affinity just dimishing bonuses for aiding against factions, stronger if the faction you save was weak.

[Ysthrall]

Originally posted by ۞Big J۞:

I still don't get how the skaven hate each other, I get they don't trust each other but outright refusing trade deals out of it.

Skaven mindset: I must achieve a position of power to safeguard myself. If any other Skaven achieves power, they are a threat to me. So I must stop anyrat else getting any advantage, because I must have them all.

Skaven are bloodthirsty, deeply and justifiably paranoid, short-sighted and spiteful. They would rather watch a rival skaven clan get killed of by dwarfs than help them out and get an ally.

(To be fair, said ally would resent it massively and try to overthrow them at the first opportunity...)

---------------

I find the factional grouping above simplistic. I'll stick to the old D&D alignments. Which has both the Dark Elves and the Chaos Dwarfs as Lawful Evil, I suspect: My way or die painfully. I do not want the world destroyed, I want to rule it and listen to it scream....

(Yes, this does lead to occassions when the Dark Elves save the world. Because damn it, it's got all their stuff on it!)

[wrought82]

well this would be affinity + shortterm alliances, that could continue if you keep having strong common enemies not +2000 relation because you once ganged up on brettonia, or worse because you agreedd a few decades back to not attack each other and indeed havent yet