dark elves tier ?

[Gibolin]

Hello,

I'm kind of new t the game and played a lot in the campaign (normal and difficult mode) with the Cult of pleasure.

But i don't manage to do good against faction like the lizard men whose units got shields, some armor, more power and way more life than my guys. So they aren't weak against my projectiles and neither against my melee.

Even my black dragon gets detsroyed against them, not even sure that he's more useful than a basic unit.


The War hydra are kind of ok but still they don't deal massive damage against them, they just tank well.

I'm weak too against human factions with full armor and shield.

Cult of pleasure cavalry is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ 'cause they don't have neither high power nor high charge bonus so they don't do much when charging at the side or back of enemy units.

I don't know if i completely miss the point of the dark elves faction and the way i should play it or if there is too much unbalance between factions.

When i look at units stat between the different factions i don't understand how you 're supposed to beat them if that wasn't for AI issue.

When you reach lvl 30+ with your main character in the Cult of pleasure, what composition your army is supposed to have ? 20 War Hydra ? I could 'cause i have a ton of gold and gain at least 8K/turn but that would be completely stupid to see that kind of army.

What's a good strat to defend yourself against a lizard man army if you can use the map at your advantage ?

[Mavkiel]

There really aren't one size fits all armies. Also it sounds like you aren't looking into special effects. Witch elves, sisters of slaughters for units. Also, magic..

I'd try lots of sisters of slaughter, a single hydra, a couple witch elf units and more then a few archer units.

[Fryskar]

It all depends. On the difficulty you picked (above normal the ai gets statboosts) and on what (army composition) you fight.
Imo DE is mainly infantry and magic with a good touch of monsters.

Your dragon should do pretty well against them, that is if you don't send him alone against multiple, even worse if spears.

At the start DE got very powerful ranged infantry. Good ap dmg and they got a shield. Ap will help you to a good degree against the lizards.
Basic spears should hold the line long enough for you to move your darkshards to a flanking position to negate their shields.
Also you should nearly always keep a mage at hand, DE got some good options.

Imo their cav isn't really much and their arty can't really compete with anyone others.

They are not really my faction but they work well enough.

[DaBo81]

All the elves have strong ranged units. If you have around 60% ranged 40% melee infantry/monsters plus a spellcaster and 1-2 quick units then that force will be able to beat most things. The quality of those units depends on your funds, but you can get far with the basic troops.

[Sn3z]

DE deal with Lizardmen(and other factions) by applying as much pressure on flanks as possible(warlocks+dread knights its high micro here for a reason) then leveraging hybrid skirmish units to clear any ranged and then using them to try and pull the lizardmen army apart if your melee line fails. Shades also have anti infantry which give your army another layer.(LM and Tomb Kangz faction are actually more vunerable when there army's are pulled apart due to primal instinct and speed).

[Rack]

Dark Elves are in current patch strongest factions.

[Sieglinde Eilserv]

If you are looking for a good very hard and under campaign set up, go with this.

Lord
2 death hags
2 hydras
5 black guard
4 dark shards
4 shades with great weapons
something to assist the front line like 2 sisters of slaughter of executioners
either fire mage or dragon, depending on what your lord is

takes care of most armies that aren't doomstacks

[Xaphnir]

If your army's struggling as Dark Elves, it needs more Shades. Against Lizardmen, anything your Shades can't damage enough with their crossbows before they close to melee will lose to Shades in melee.

[franz]

Shades and black guards. AND more armies than them is the key , since your potential is far superior to slaves.

[Skyler712]

Dark Elves armies are not very healthy, they tend to end their conflicts quickly.
Against Lizardmen, the counter for this units is magic, skirmishers, big creatures to nuke generals and t rexes, and a bunch of crossbows with greatswords to nuke the big dinos.
Oh and abuse the ambush stance like, a lot. Hope it helps

[Gibolin]

Originally posted by Sieglinde Eilserv:

If you are looking for a good very hard and under campaign set up, go with this.

Lord
2 death hags
2 hydras
5 black guard
4 dark shards
4 shades with great weapons
something to assist the front line like 2 sisters of slaughter of executioners
either fire mage or dragon, depending on what your lord is

takes care of most armies that aren't doomstacks

i can't win high level battles without shades ? I don't like this unit

[Gibolin]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

I
Your dragon should do pretty well against them, that is if you don't send him alone against multiple, even worse if spears.

Given the time you need to be able to get a dragon i thought i t would be a very badass unit but contrary to the Hydra it doesn't have projectile damage reduction. In addition his poison breath isn't that powerful, maybe a little bit more strong than Hydra's fire specially against armor guys and most of the time it bugs out and does not allow the ability to launch.

If you aren't in a siege, i don't see the point of picking him instead of an other Hydra or a strong melee unit.

[Black Hammer]

I almost never use shades. Most of my play is on normal or hard battle difficulty, though; on very hard battle difficulty, you have to rely heavily on ranged (due to melee buffs the AI gets) and thus shades.

Dreadspears, buffed with the redline leader buffs, have very high melee defense, resistance to missiles due to shields, and decent BvL (bonus versus large) along with charge defense against large. They are a dirt cheap unit that can hold a line against almost anything except dedicated anti-infantry infantry. Most anti-infantry infantry don't have shields, so those are what you shoot first with your darkshards.

Yes, Black Guard of Naggarond are better in almost every way, except for two glaring weaknesses: they don't have shields and they aren't any more durable in the face of magic or artillery. Black Guard of Naggarond have great stats in theory, but they are mostly wasted against most targets. I tend to run half and half if I have the money, but more likely I'll be running just two black guard with four dreadspears, if not more.

Darkshards are amazing: anti-armor missile units are extremely useful for the entire game.

Hydras are OK but you shouldn't use more than you can micro. If you're not getting off two of your three breath attacks for each hydra per battle, take fewer. A lot of their offensive oomph is tied up in their breath attacks; after that they are just a beefy critter.

Yes, shock cavalry is a weakness of the DE roster. You're using light cavalry that can't handle an extended engagement (Dark Riders, Doomfire Warlocks) or the clunky dark one knights. The latter have rampage: I just don't use them at all. The former are more useful for moral shocks (charge into rear, apply morale penalty, chase them down as they flee) than actual damage. Doomfire Warlocks get some fun spells, if you can micro them effectively.

Here's an example of my preferred army comp lategame:

1 Lord. Usually the melee sort; you get some very strong buffs from the titles of power. Even with Morathi, I usually take her down the red (army buffs) and blue (campaign buff) lines along with her personal traits, and completely ignore magic. Stick a mage in your army, have them cast spells. Lord points are better spent on army buffs.

1 Caster. Whichever lore you like; usually I like something with a nice vortex or area damage spell. If the enemy blobs, you want to be able to punish it.

1 Witch Hag. These upgrade well with the altars of Khaine to buff your troops and help crack the enemy line.

4 units of Darkshards. Yay for AP missiles. There are times I field as many as six or seven units of them, but that's usually early game. With shields, they trade favorably against High Elf archers, and they kill lizards good.

4-6 units of Dreadspears. No, they don't kill anything, but they take a long time to kill unless someone is hitting them with top tier anti-infantry infantry. And most of those don't have shields, meaning you can kill them off first with your Darkshards.

2 units of Black Guard of Naggarond. These are really only at their best against heavily armored large units. Otherwise you're paying for stats that aren't being used.

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower. This is a bait; the unit itself isn't amazing, but you always want an artillery unit to either snipe the enemy's artillery or force them to come to you.

2 units of pursuit troops. Dark Riders, Harpies, or Doomfire Warlocks. Something fast and light to either get into the enemy artillery and archers, or to rear charge for morale shocks and pursue fleeing units. If you get a lucky terror rout early or missile pressure break on an enemy unit, you want follow up to make sure it doesn't come back.

1 or 2 Witch Elf or Sisters of Slaughter or even Executioners. These are for dedicated anti-infantry; keep them well back of your line to avoid missile fire and only countercharge with them. Always try to engage the enemy with your high melee defense, shielded Dreadspears first, then invest that engagement with your anti-infantry troops, preferably on a flank. Your anti-infantry guys will be far, far more effective that way, taking fewer casualties and inflicting more.

Fill out the rest with monsters. Hydras are beefy boys, and do a great job of soaking up attacks or just slapping people around while spreading terror. The Kharybdis isn't my favorite; anti-large monsters are theoretically at their best against either other large monsters or cavalry. They are too slow to catch cavalry, and you can already melt large monsters with your darkshards. Dragons are fancy but expensive and you won't even have access to them for more than half the campaign probably.

If you have the DLCs, swap one pursuit unit for scourgerunner chariots, and reserve a monster slot for a medusa or bloodwrack shrine. Also put in a Master.

As far as tactics go, you're not going to beat lizardmen in a line infantry fight. Nothing can compete with saurus toe to toe. Get your missile units around a flank or something if you can or just focus the dinos. Use your monsters aggressively if they aren't spear saurus; if they are spear saurus, just run them into your dreadspears and leave them there the entire game because their MA isn't great.

Don't let their specialty units wreck you. Focus on taking out their lords; Saurus Old Bloods and Scar Veterans are extremely deadly.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

Yes, Black Guard of Naggarond are better in almost every way, except for two glaring weaknesses: they don't have shields and they aren't any more durable in the face of magic or artillery. Black Guard of Naggarond have great stats in theory, but they are mostly wasted against most targets. I tend to run half and half if I have the money, but more likely I'll be running just two black guard with four dreadspears, if not more.

And that last sentence highlighted the reason you should be using only Black Guard and not Dreadspears once you have access to them: 6 is too many. Replace those 4 Dreadspears with 2 Black Guard and 2 missile units and you'll have more damage output along with a front line that will last longer in melee. And no, you're not paying for a lot of stats that aren't being used. They have more melee defense. They have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ more armor. They have more health. They have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ more leadership. Those 4 stats mean that one unit of Black Guard will last several times as long in melee compared to Dreadspears, regardless of what they're fighting.

Shades are just flat out better than Darkshards in almost every situation. They put out more damage, they're faster, have stalk and can vanguard deploy so can position better and they won't fold immediately upon a melee unit getting to them. And if their lord has Shadowdart their range gets a little ridiculous. Also, 4 is too few regardless of whether you're using Darkshards or Shades. Missiles are one of the greatest strengths for the Dark Elves. Use it.

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower. This is a bait; the unit itself isn't amazing, but you always want an artillery unit to either snipe the enemy's artillery or force them to come to you.

You might be surprised by how good the Reaper Bolt Thrower can be. No, it's not in the same league as Empire, Skaven, Dwarf or Vampire Coast artillery, but it can put up quite a lot of kills, and it's also quite versatile.

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

As far as tactics go, you're not going to beat lizardmen in a line infantry fight. Nothing can compete with saurus toe to toe.

This is true in the early game. Saurus Warriors are the best tier 1 infantry in the game and the best tier 2 after Chaos Warriors. But after that the only stronger infantry they get are Temple Guard, which will lose to Executioners or Sisters of Slaughter.

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

1 or 2 Witch Elf or Sisters of Slaughter or even Executioners. These are for dedicated anti-infantry; keep them well back of your line to avoid missile fire and only countercharge with them. Always try to engage the enemy with your high melee defense, shielded Dreadspears first, then invest that engagement with your anti-infantry troops, preferably on a flank. Your anti-infantry guys will be far, far more effective that way, taking fewer casualties and inflicting more.

There's no choice between Sisters of Slaughter or Witch Elves. You use either Sisters of Slaughter or you replace them with something else. Witch Elves can put out damage, but in melee they'll suffer a lot of damage even against low-tier anti-large infantry. Sisters have over double the melee defense and have poison attacks.

The other issue with this army composition is that it's all over the place in terms of red line buffs. You're either going to have to invest way too many points in the red line for your lord or you're going to have a significant chunk of your army without red line buffs.

[Andrewbh2003]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

Yes, Black Guard of Naggarond are better in almost every way, except for two glaring weaknesses: they don't have shields and they aren't any more durable in the face of magic or artillery. Black Guard of Naggarond have great stats in theory, but they are mostly wasted against most targets. I tend to run half and half if I have the money, but more likely I'll be running just two black guard with four dreadspears, if not more.

And that last sentence highlighted the reason you should be using only Black Guard and not Dreadspears once you have access to them: 6 is too many. Replace those 4 Dreadspears with 2 Black Guard and 2 missile units and you'll have more damage output along with a front line that will last longer in melee. And no, you're not paying for a lot of stats that aren't being used. They have more melee defense. They have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ more armor. They have more health. They have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ more leadership. Those 4 stats mean that one unit of Black Guard will last several times as long in melee compared to Dreadspears, regardless of what they're fighting.

Shades are just flat out better than Darkshards in almost every situation. They put out more damage, they're faster, have stalk and can vanguard deploy so can position better and they won't fold immediately upon a melee unit getting to them. And if their lord has Shadowdart their range gets a little ridiculous. Also, 4 is too few regardless of whether you're using Darkshards or Shades. Missiles are one of the greatest strengths for the Dark Elves. Use it.

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower. This is a bait; the unit itself isn't amazing, but you always want an artillery unit to either snipe the enemy's artillery or force them to come to you.

You might be surprised by how good the Reaper Bolt Thrower can be. No, it's not in the same league as Empire, Skaven, Dwarf or Vampire Coast artillery, but it can put up quite a lot of kills, and it's also quite versatile.

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

As far as tactics go, you're not going to beat lizardmen in a line infantry fight. Nothing can compete with saurus toe to toe.

This is true in the early game. Saurus Warriors are the best tier 1 infantry in the game and the best tier 2 after Chaos Warriors. But after that the only stronger infantry they get are Temple Guard, which will lose to Executioners or Sisters of Slaughter.

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

1 or 2 Witch Elf or Sisters of Slaughter or even Executioners. These are for dedicated anti-infantry; keep them well back of your line to avoid missile fire and only countercharge with them. Always try to engage the enemy with your high melee defense, shielded Dreadspears first, then invest that engagement with your anti-infantry troops, preferably on a flank. Your anti-infantry guys will be far, far more effective that way, taking fewer casualties and inflicting more.

There's no choice between Sisters of Slaughter or Witch Elves. You use either Sisters of Slaughter or you replace them with something else. Witch Elves can put out damage, but in melee they'll suffer a lot of damage even against low-tier anti-large infantry. Sisters have over double the melee defense and have poison attacks.

The other issue with this army composition is that it's all over the place in terms of red line buffs. You're either going to have to invest way too many points in the red line for your lord or you're going to have a significant chunk of your army without red line buffs.

witch elves are invaluable due to madness of khaine

they have a contact effect that rampages whatever they are fighting

so have em fight say a cav or monster and then you "essentially" net them in place and have your black guard shred them to pieces

i always have 1 witch elf "Never more or less than 1 " per stack as madness of khaine is just SUCH a good ability that comes in clutch in so many scenarios

[Sieglinde Eilserv]

You don't just use hydras for their breath, you use them for striking fear into enemy melee units. They easily set the edges for your front line. Don't bother with witch elves or sisters, unless you love fighting every battle manually. Otherwise they die and have to be replaced a lot. And sisters at a 2 turn recruit time just aren't worth the wait when you could use another death hag or shade unit. Death hags are great not only on the battlefield, but with replentishing your troops once you finish. Super helpful when you got that high elf army spam coming at you in groups of 4 :p

With my comp I rarely have to fight any battles manually if I don't want to, unless I'm severely outnumbered.