Ordertide?

[Sarumoon]

Hey i'm new back to the game, I keep seeing "ordertide" used in these forums but googling it didnt tell me anything, except people dont like it? What is it a new game mechanic? I cant seem to find out anything.

[THEDOSSBOSS]

Not a mechanic. Races of order (dwarves, empire, bretonnia, high elves, etc) tend to band together quite often. This results in them annihilating all other races by the late game, making the late game much of the same where you face endless hordes of the 4 races.

[Haplo]

Ordertide/ Faction of the Order snowballing out of control.
Empire + brettonia+Dwarves+Hight elves, all of em growing huge, and having a militairy alliance.
Make it hard to play a 3"evil" faction

[Sarumoon]

Oh. Ok. Thanks!

[Darth Alpharius]

Ordertide is still there devs still haven't nerfed it

[Ysthrall]

Originally posted by Darth Alpharius:

Ordertide is still there devs still haven't nerfed it

How nerfed do you want it? Reduced to the point where Chaos, Vampires, and Greenskins wipe the board 80% of the time.

Carefully nerfed to the point where without you, Order alliances will sweep the board most (but not all) of the time, very slowly...?

Balanced to the point where one set of alliance or the other wipes the board on an even frequency? (ie, 5/10 games it's ordertide, 5/10 games its doomtide)

Or balanced to the point where without your intervention, all the armies deadlock into each other and nothing moves for 200 turns?

What, precisely.... do you want?

[a lucky noob]

Originally posted by Ysthrall:

Originally posted by Darth Alpharius:

Ordertide is still there devs still haven't nerfed it

How nerfed do you want it? Reduced to the point where Chaos, Vampires, and Greenskins wipe the board 80% of the time.

Carefully nerfed to the point where without you, Order alliances will sweep the board most (but not all) of the time, very slowly...?

Balanced to the point where one set of alliance or the other wipes the board on an even frequency? (ie, 5/10 games it's ordertide, 5/10 games its doomtide)

Or balanced to the point where without your intervention, all the armies deadlock into each other and nothing moves for 200 turns?

What, precisely.... do you want?

Third one sounds good. Thanks.

[Emjay]

I think adding a diplomacy debuff to certain factions might help.

High elves and dwarves for example don't really get on, so they could have some sort of debuff or some sort of attrition from being allies for too long. Random diplomatic events maybe.

The same could be said of bretonnia and empire. They are completely different and arguably have different goals.

The whole diplomacy system needs a revisit though, which I think is where it all lies.

[THEDOSSBOSS]

Balancing is an EXTREMELY difficult thing to do to this scale. This isn't shogun 2 where the main factions only had slight buffs, and everyone else has the exact same roster, so any clan could become a major power (and even then, there was a few minor clans that were likely to make it to the late game because they simply started in the better position. Yamanoucha or whatever they were called were one of these. The honma started out strong as well since they have their own island with a gold mine).

But for a game where there are 15 races, and each race is extremely different from each other in almost any way, balancing is extremely difficult to do.

The issue here is that all of the evil and indifferent factions, both in the game and the lore (and to maintain authenticity, i'd like it to stay that way) hate each other as much as the races of order hate them. Only Skaven, Norsca, and Chaos are likely to band together and even then, the Chaos invasion comes too late to make such an alliance. Meanwhile, the Empire has ties with both the High Elves and the Dwarves (the dwarves and high elves should probably hate each other more, but the Empire acts as the middleman between them, geographically and politically) so as long as they both have alliances with the empire, they'll play nice.

Also, races of order still need to band together during the chaos invasion at least, so the ordertide will be formed regardless.

So in terms of balancing, CA would have to dumb down the races of order to such a point that individually they cannot accomplish anything, which isn't really balanced as it purposefully makes those races artificially weaker.

It is not a simple thing to fix unless the initial race actions are scripted and randomized, once again making the campaign progress artificially.

[Vrooktar]

I actually have yet to see a campaign where High Elves thrive.
Ulthuan almost always ends up as Lizard country by Turn 100 in my playthroughs.
Anyway I think much of it comes down to diplomacy and starting areas.
2 orc settlements and one minor settlement of vampires are just not likely to do well against the 7 Breton factions they are surrounded by.
Factions that literally never wage war against each other, which is the diplomacy issue.
If you have such powerful blocks of factions like Bretonia or the empire you need them to have infights to keep them in check.

[Reef]

just more food for the ratling guns yes-yes

on serious note i had to go back 30 turns on my skaven playthrough to even be remotely ready for the order tide

[Rizikar]

In my Mortal Empire campaigns 9 times out of 10, Dark Elves destroy the high elves, then launch massive invasion forces.

[Sarcastro]

Yeah, got notice that the Empire was destroyed on turn 19. So much for this "Ordertide."

[Krok]

I have been seeing Grimgor steamroll Dwarves in the last few campaigns as Human or Belegar... I haven't seen an ordertide take over in a while.

[Solvem Probler]

The "good" factions all get a big diplomacy buff once the Chaos invasion begins, so they all team up. It SHOULD revert once Chaos is defeated and they SHOULD start to fight each other but that takes a long time to happen.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by Rizikar:

In my Mortal Empire campaigns 9 times out of 10, Dark Elves destroy the high elves, then launch massive invasion forces.

Yes; ordertide has been nerfed to the ground. But with the new Dwarf changes, who knows?

Originally posted by NihilVerum:

The "good" factions all get a big diplomacy buff once the Chaos invasion begins, so they all team up. It SHOULD revert once Chaos is defeated and they SHOULD start to fight each other but that takes a long time to happen.

AFAIK, that buff goes to all factions fighting chaos, including DE, Orcs, Skaven, etc. Want to see the Skaven team up with the elfs? Just give 'em a chaos invasion to fight together.