Vampire Coast heroes way too op

[Lucipurr, The Silly One.]

So im about 50 turns in... annndd ive realized my heroes can solo armies.
So Vinnie is a mourngul haunter.
Vinnie has 639 weapon strength with 35 being bonus against infantry (426 AP)
Vinnie has 73 melee attack and 79 melee defence.
Vinnie can do alot of damage.
But vinnie can also take alot of damage too
Vinnie has 30% ward save 45% physical resistance, 50% missile resistance, 8600 health, and 56 armor.
Vinnie also heals himself when in combat. He also does magic damage and applies frostbite.
wtf vinnie?
anyone else think this is a bit much? what other faction has anything close to this.

I literally just send vinnie in and queen bess kills the entire army while he goes nuts.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Not online!!!:

and yet the only vampirate that get's into lategame is harkon and noctilus.
I wonder why?

Meanwhile dwarfs, HE and empire have formed the order tide

1: It's a pirate faction, movement is the best they got.
2: No, compared to dwarf heros, they suck, same with HE.
3: SHIP ARMY, regular armies don't get anything in that regard-
4: Lore of the deep is one of the worst lores in campaign-
5: VC has no attrition inherent tho, and compared to norsca raiding at 0 i know what i prefer
6: Which in most cases is underwhelming zombies, and also again aplies only to ship armies.
7: is a ♥♥♥♥♥ mechanic and reliant that there have been battles fought allready and or you get 1 okay unit and the rest is waste of money.
8: The ♥♥♥♥ you talking about? Also compared to teclis, etc, no. Sidenote HE can stack even more magical reserve because HE hero spam is fun
9: A single piece once, helll even hellcanons are better and are regular units.
10: LAcking any and all cavalery, any and all mainline infantry, you know the things used to tie down to actually damage things with your gunpoweder?
11: Are easily the worst mechanic in the game, relying on massive initial investment or an army nearby and the only way to expand reliably your hero count.... Which you need because you need extra powder.
12: laugh in dwarfen requisition tree for heros.
13: Debatable, it's the first instance in WHTW where a functioning tech tree got created.
14: (LIMITED) you get at most all the legendary captains and your LL. That is not a full horde faction.
15: Beeing a hybrid is a core design aspect of them, and is what makes them interesting.
16: Lore of vampires for beeing a vampire faction which is only that good because it has to compensate the shortcomings attributed with ALL vampire factions of lacking specific key units.
17: the empire don^t get offices anymore, and if it stilll would then the fact remains that it was the empire system beeing too bad if anything then the VC one beeing too good.
18: which gives you a selection of slot waste beyond the musketmen. so basically a non argument

You can't base your assessments of strength off of the AI and auto-resolve (what is used when AI face each other). Both are horribly flawed. Vampire Counts (not coast) have awful auto-resolve values built in that will lead to a mid game army vs a 5 man dwarf garrison tilting in the dwarf's favor, while when it comes to the AI the beastmen is one of the best examples of where it really doesn't shine. They never go into encamp stance to heal and recruit leading to them just dwindling down over time with no effort to rebuild their forces.

The beatsmen have their own problems, but taking on a similar sized army and living to rebuild is not one of them, in fact on the hands of a human player they can stomp most of them even if the other side is human controlled, they just get overwhelmed by not being able to keep the enemies down for good, and their army losses being far more crippling due to losing a larger fraction of their force and what is the equivalent of an entire province.

[Not online!!!]

TBF the autoresolves been drunk since , well ever in this game.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Not online!!!:

TBF the autoresolves been drunk since , well ever in this game.

I agree, but that is all the more reason you can't go off of the AI controlled factions as any battle not involving you the player is auto-resolves, and I've seen Vampire count and beastmen armies get obliterated by other AIs when I know for a fact they held an overwhelming advantage.

[wrought82]

pirates have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ economy, that makes them weak. turn 50 empire/HE/DE/vrt/dwarves will have a 50K income, pirates lucky to have 25K

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by wrought82:

pirates have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ economy, that makes them weak. turn 50 empire/HE/DE/vrt/dwarves will have a 50K income, pirates lucky to have 25K

Factually false.

[lump0815]

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
Yeah VC is just completely broken.
...

Not the slightest.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
1. Too many movement speed buffs.
...

It's a matter of fleet-based armies only; however, given how the cove-mechanic requires the player to roam the whole coastline of the map, it's quite necessary to get anywhere anytime soon.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
2. Heroes are too powerful....

Plain fiction.
- Captains are Hybrid caster/melee-heroes /w probably the 2nd-worst mount option in the game (worse only being "none").
- Gunnery Wrights are an illiterate copy of dwarven/skaven Mechanics; like those, they increase ranged capacities of an army, just that they do so way worse; their only true purpose is to maintain Queen Bess' functionality for a (admittedly good) while longer - that's a booster to a single unit in all of your armies.
- Mournguls get slaughtered by other monstrous heroes (Skinwolves, Gorebulls); and while their stats like impressive on 1st glance, all that glitters is not gold: Their MA/MD-stats are in line /w pretty much all melee heroes, thus not worth a mention; their phRes looks great yet comes /w basically "0" armour = no AP-dmg needed to take them down effectively; their dmg-stat looks great yet comes /w a tendency to attack quite slow due to frequent charging even whilst in melee already - which also drops the dmg-output significantly since charging often only knocks it's target over instead of actually hurting it.
Ontop, heroes in the whole game are not exactly balanced towards regular troops. Ever seen what a Plague Priest on Furnace, equipped /w Warpstone armor, does PASSIVELY in terms of dmg-proccs? Watched a Death Hag on Cauldron enjoy her time enraging Hydras while happily slaughtering enemies herself left and right? Enjoyed Skink-priests on tank-sized dinosaurs roflstomp through enemy lines, using their spells on perfectly blobbed-up enemies around them?
Finally, equipment-based stat-changes are not debateable. Those aren't unit-immanent but based on a player-choice.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
3. Army upkeep is extremely low due to buildings.
...

Yes. On fully developed fleet-armies - which takes both quite some time AND a fair amount of money to achieve, AND is limited to a maximum of 6. I.e., it's quite an endgame-perk - at that time, e.g. HE's can set up Doomstacks /w 19 Stardragons for precisely "0" upkeep.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
4. OP spell lore.
...

Obviously added to bolster your list's numbers. Else nonsensical. In the right circumstances, any lore can be "gamechanging op".

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
5. Encamp at 0 movement points for no attrition
...

Which should've been so for Chaos and Beastmen from the start. Vagabonds needing half their daytime just to set up camp is a silly concept, they're not raising a palace to reside in all the time.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
6. takes 1 turn to fully recover your entire army
...

In late to endgame. Almost all faction regenerate extremely fast at that point.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
7. Raise dead
...

Cool story.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
8. Infinite winds of magic due to buildings.
...

Not even close to true.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
9. Queen Bess.
...

Wow. Really. This list gets... "special"... Pirates got an unique, slow-firing and easily dodgable artillery piece as reward for a rite. TOTALLY over the top. While at it, what about Hellstorm rocket launchers? Better range, better splash area. Admittedly lower dmg/hit, but in return not limited in numbers....

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
10. Near fully stocked roster with infantry, ranged units, monster infantry, and artillery.
...

No: Top-tier melee infantry, indirect-fire ranged infantry, cavalry, good army synergy (have fun using gunners and artillery alongside monsters; even your own melee infantry does not work well hand to hand /w your ranged troops).

Unlike, HE's, DE's, Lizards, who REALLY got it all, or Skaven, who only lack a single troop aspect (=flyers), Pirates are quite in line /w game1-factions regarding their roster-setup.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
11. Pirate Cove Mechanics
...

How about mentioning the downsides? Coves are needed for both income, and providing hero-slots. Due to being 1-slot thingies, it's an either-or-decision. Plus, cove-buildings aren't exactly free which can quickly mean a pure waste of ressources - settlements get razed from time to time, plus you yourself will want to expand your own real estate-assets from time to time.
Ontop, noone like stinking corpses = no trade options for most of the game, mediocre settlement income, abysmally low mining revenue.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
12. Extra powder is overkill
...

It's the only reason "why to" recruit gunnery wrights at all. Dwarven and Skaven mechanics boost ammo passively instead, plus boost range, plus boost movement speed, dmg.
Silly statement.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
13. Tech tree is WAY too good.
...

To pick up your habbit there: Earthworms are WAY too good.
Now... why? Dunno. They are. Period. (= another silly statement).

Originally posted by Zoey:

...

14. Has the benefits of a horde faction.
15. Has the benefit of non-horde factions.

Uhm. The benefit of horde-playstyle is not to have a home you have to defend. Which isn't the matter /w Pirates. Other than that, it's just another means of army recruitment. Convinient, powerful if used right - but nothing dysbalancing in general (could argue abt Pirates/Counts-comparison there, but that's pretty much it).

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
16. Has access to lore of vampires
..

............................................. Empire has access to almost all lores. HE's have access to high lore. DE's have access to Dark lore. Skaven have 3 unique lores. Greenskins got 2 exclusive lores. Beastmen can summon artillery giants. Really? Turning from silly to pointless.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
17. Have access to offices system like the empire but way better. (ex: -8% upkeep all armies. Pirate crew growth +10 all armies.)
...

Nowhere better. Just different. Same goes for WE-offices; yet again different effects, not "better" (nor "worse").

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
18. Can raise dead at sea
...

Uuuuh ya..... raising the simplest cannonfodder units of the whole roster, at quite limited numbers, DEFINITELY makes a faction op.....

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
I could add more but I got bored.
...

Can help you out: They are OP cuz the sky is blue. Cuz they're immune to Covid. Cuz the braineating ant-emperor has ordered so. And, most of all, cuz puppies are cute.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
(Also im clearly talking about campaign, Im not complaining about their MP performance Im saying their campaign is overtuned to high hell)

Re: My initial statement: not the slightest. All you did there was listing basically anything the faction has to offer, w/o any reasonable balance check relative to other factions. That's no arguing for "why Pirates are OP" but just a simple list what - quite roughly - they are about.

[Humble]

Vampire count/Vampire coast hero/lord should and even had to be powrful more than other, because way design of undead work, if lord/hero down, so was army, but most living faction, solider still stand and fighting, or flee then turn back and fight even lord/hero are down, but not undead, undead going down right away once lord/hero is down, is why easy target, everyone would sniper undead lord/hero then you already won battle, all army will go down fast. It's won't work on living, but it's work on undead, other reason undead leader often is more powerful than normal in lore background as well, when come to combat.

[Lucipurr, The Silly One.]

Originally posted by lump0815:

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
Yeah VC is just completely broken.
...

Not the slightest.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
1. Too many movement speed buffs.
...

It's a matter of fleet-based armies only; however, given how the cove-mechanic requires the player to roam the whole coastline of the map, it's quite necessary to get anywhere anytime soon.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
2. Heroes are too powerful....

Plain fiction.
- Captains are Hybrid caster/melee-heroes /w probably the 2nd-worst mount option in the game (worse only being "none").
- Gunnery Wrights are an illiterate copy of dwarven/skaven Mechanics; like those, they increase ranged capacities of an army, just that they do so way worse; their only true purpose is to maintain Queen Bess' functionality for a (admittedly good) while longer - that's a booster to a single unit in all of your armies.
- Mournguls get slaughtered by other monstrous heroes (Skinwolves, Gorebulls); and while their stats like impressive on 1st glance, all that glitters is not gold: Their MA/MD-stats are in line /w pretty much all melee heroes, thus not worth a mention; their phRes looks great yet comes /w basically "0" armour = no AP-dmg needed to take them down effectively; their dmg-stat looks great yet comes /w a tendency to attack quite slow due to frequent charging even whilst in melee already - which also drops the dmg-output significantly since charging often only knocks it's target over instead of actually hurting it.
Ontop, heroes in the whole game are not exactly balanced towards regular troops. Ever seen what a Plague Priest on Furnace, equipped /w Warpstone armor, does PASSIVELY in terms of dmg-proccs? Watched a Death Hag on Cauldron enjoy her time enraging Hydras while happily slaughtering enemies herself left and right? Enjoyed Skink-priests on tank-sized dinosaurs roflstomp through enemy lines, using their spells on perfectly blobbed-up enemies around them?
Finally, equipment-based stat-changes are not debateable. Those aren't unit-immanent but based on a player-choice.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
3. Army upkeep is extremely low due to buildings.
...

Yes. On fully developed fleet-armies - which takes both quite some time AND a fair amount of money to achieve, AND is limited to a maximum of 6. I.e., it's quite an endgame-perk - at that time, e.g. HE's can set up Doomstacks /w 19 Stardragons for precisely "0" upkeep.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
4. OP spell lore.
...

Obviously added to bolster your list's numbers. Else nonsensical. In the right circumstances, any lore can be "gamechanging op".

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
5. Encamp at 0 movement points for no attrition
...

Which should've been so for Chaos and Beastmen from the start. Vagabonds needing half their daytime just to set up camp is a silly concept, they're not raising a palace to reside in all the time.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
6. takes 1 turn to fully recover your entire army
...

In late to endgame. Almost all faction regenerate extremely fast at that point.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
7. Raise dead
...

Cool story.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
8. Infinite winds of magic due to buildings.
...

Not even close to true.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
9. Queen Bess.
...

Wow. Really. This list gets... "special"... Pirates got an unique, slow-firing and easily dodgable artillery piece as reward for a rite. TOTALLY over the top. While at it, what about Hellstorm rocket launchers? Better range, better splash area. Admittedly lower dmg/hit, but in return not limited in numbers....

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
10. Near fully stocked roster with infantry, ranged units, monster infantry, and artillery.
...

No: Top-tier melee infantry, indirect-fire ranged infantry, cavalry, good army synergy (have fun using gunners and artillery alongside monsters; even your own melee infantry does not work well hand to hand /w your ranged troops).

Unlike, HE's, DE's, Lizards, who REALLY got it all, or Skaven, who only lack a single troop aspect (=flyers), Pirates are quite in line /w game1-factions regarding their roster-setup.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
11. Pirate Cove Mechanics
...

How about mentioning the downsides? Coves are needed for both income, and providing hero-slots. Due to being 1-slot thingies, it's an either-or-decision. Plus, cove-buildings aren't exactly free which can quickly mean a pure waste of ressources - settlements get razed from time to time, plus you yourself will want to expand your own real estate-assets from time to time.
Ontop, noone like stinking corpses = no trade options for most of the game, mediocre settlement income, abysmally low mining revenue.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
12. Extra powder is overkill
...

It's the only reason "why to" recruit gunnery wrights at all. Dwarven and Skaven mechanics boost ammo passively instead, plus boost range, plus boost movement speed, dmg.
Silly statement.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
13. Tech tree is WAY too good.
...

To pick up your habbit there: Earthworms are WAY too good.
Now... why? Dunno. They are. Period. (= another silly statement).

Originally posted by Zoey:

...

14. Has the benefits of a horde faction.
15. Has the benefit of non-horde factions.

Uhm. The benefit of horde-playstyle is not to have a home you have to defend. Which isn't the matter /w Pirates. Other than that, it's just another means of army recruitment. Convinient, powerful if used right - but nothing dysbalancing in general (could argue abt Pirates/Counts-comparison there, but that's pretty much it).

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
16. Has access to lore of vampires
..

............................................. Empire has access to almost all lores. HE's have access to high lore. DE's have access to Dark lore. Skaven have 3 unique lores. Greenskins got 2 exclusive lores. Beastmen can summon artillery giants. Really? Turning from silly to pointless.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
17. Have access to offices system like the empire but way better. (ex: -8% upkeep all armies. Pirate crew growth +10 all armies.)
...

Nowhere better. Just different. Same goes for WE-offices; yet again different effects, not "better" (nor "worse").

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
18. Can raise dead at sea
...

Uuuuh ya..... raising the simplest cannonfodder units of the whole roster, at quite limited numbers, DEFINITELY makes a faction op.....

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
I could add more but I got bored.
...

Can help you out: They are OP cuz the sky is blue. Cuz they're immune to Covid. Cuz the braineating ant-emperor has ordered so. And, most of all, cuz puppies are cute.

Originally posted by Zoey:

...
(Also im clearly talking about campaign, Im not complaining about their MP performance Im saying their campaign is overtuned to high hell)

Re: My initial statement: not the slightest. All you did there was listing basically anything the faction has to offer, w/o any reasonable balance check relative to other factions. That's no arguing for "why Pirates are OP" but just a simple list what - quite roughly - they are about.

Yes. I am listing things the faction has to offer, because VC brings way too much to the table.
Nearly half of your arguments are just "No" or "not op!"
Like raise dead... your argument is they can only raise low tier units... You clearly have 0 idea how raise dead works.
Queen bess can half hit any infantry in 1 shot, no hell cannons are not even close to that.
And yes. Their office system is BETTER, because it gives much stronger buffs...
Pirate coves arent needed for their economy its extra. Im assuming you've never played VC.
And you have to be kidding me about lore of deeps being the wost lore of magic.

all you did was go down my list and go "NU UH! NOT OP!" compare what VC has to factions like dwarves greenskins tomb kings etc. Try countering my points with actual information, actually try playing VC before arguing with me.
at this point im assuming your trolling because of how stupid your points were. You just straight up deny facts, like VC having insanely high replenishment. your response: NO! only in the late game! yeah I didnt know turn 10 was late game, my bad.

[ethorin101]

Look, if I was gonna list every good thing about some other faction I'd get a nice big list of brutally OP things too. Especially including one offs.

Also "infinite winds of magic" is NOT special for caster heavy factions. Basically all of them have Knowledgeable or an equivalent trait to stack +Winds faction wide. And "From buildings"? Excuse me? the Sails building caps out at like +20 without mods and isn't even faction wide last I looked. If that's "infinite winds of magic" I really wonder what you'll say about 8 or so Knowledgeable Empire Mages.

It might be a bit cheesy but you can stack trule insane amounts of winds for any faction that's notably heavy on magic.

[Harmania]

Undead factions have really good lords and heroes, but generally more subpar armies. Kinda how it goes. You need to look at the full kit, not just the hero.

[Fastwinstondoom]

Congrats, you've learned how to cheese the game. Any faction can do that, it's just easier and faster with Vampire Coast. If you think Vinne and Bess are a winning combo I'd point you towards kitted out empire captains and hellstorm rocket batteries. Same deal, only you can have it in every army. Cheap elite armies for VC? High Elves dgaf, by turn 100 you can make enough gold from taxes alone to field a dozen armies.

Even a s hitshow like the beastmen can be OP if you're willing to cheese hard enough. (Stack leadership debuff heroes)

[GamerHubert]

Problem is that u are playing vs AI. If u would play vs a player he could build a leadshipkiller and your vampire would starting to decay (biggest undead flaw). He could kite a hero or many other ways to deal with it. But ye if u got a good hero u can fight armies solo. White dwarf with full items and uprade, soloed full undead army with 60% hp lleft