[lore question] difference between Bretonnia and the Empire?

[Thenetor47[FR]]

hello, i'm doing this topic because i'm unsure of some things.

i'm playing the Mortal Empire "sandbox" campaign, and i'd like to know the difference between the Bretonnian and the Imperials, but in the lore, not the gameplay.

it's because well... i'd like to ally with only one human side, so i'd like to know which one of them are morelike "the good guy".

see you (all) later :)

[Kaaz]

both are 'the ok guy' both have fairly bad sides to go alongside their good. id say they are fairly even on the good/evil scale

[Daliena]

Bretonnia is a fairly repressive regime where the nobles take 9/10ths of all the peasants produce, then herd them off to war, poorly-equipped and barely trained most times, to serve as footmen so they can hog all the glory as knights.

They also (unknowingly) worship an elven goddess who's basically just using them.

The Empire meanwhile is kindasorta progressive for the lack of deeply-entrenched "only knights are worth anything" culture, and a willingness to adapt more advanced weaponry (as well as technology in general that improves people's lives outside war, too) as such, but they do have their bad days with the witch hunters.

"The question is not how to separate the innocent citizens of the Empire from the worshippers of Chaos. The question is how many I can burn."
—Witch Hunter Adolphus Mann

[RED /(Weber)\]

Empire is Renaissance. Bretonnia is Medieval.

[THE_RaBiD_CanuK]

They are both "good" in theory, that's why the dwarves trade with and aid the humans so much, but in Warhammer, everything has a potential dark or contradictory side.

[M4tt]

Empire are the descendants of multiple tribes who were unified into the empire by its first emperor and later main deity sigmar. Their main objective is to survive against all of the evil races that plague them. They have a pretty standart human military (pikemen, swordsmen, etc.) backed up by gunpowder weapons (and some extra engineering stuff up to steam tanks) and trained magic users.

Bretonnia is pretty much the arthurian legend but in france as theme. Its a feudal system about knights and lords trying to fulfill as many heroic deeds as possible to prove their worth to the lady of the lake, their main deity. That means going on a quest to fight beastmen, undead, greenskin and norscan raiders until one day they might encounter the lady of the lake who lets them sup from the grail, which transforms them into a grail knight (which makes them much, much stronger).

Overall both factions are "good", but both have shadows. Theres plenty of corruption in the empire and bretonnia is a super oppressive regime to its peasants, who are seen more as animals not worthy of protection by some lords.
If you are looking for a 100% good faction warhammer isnt for you.

[EnStorEn]

Brettonia:
Arthurian Knights (basically medieval France). They were tricked to believe an elf sorceress was actually a divine being (the lady), which is the center piece of their religion and to an extent their whole culture. They are an extremely undeveloped nation, with poor peasants farming and tolling away while the nobles ride around seeking out deeds and glory. Brettonia is also split into several regions, with each having its own noble leader. Brettonia basically have no technology development to speak of, but instead rely on their imposing cavalary.

It is not a nice society however, as the low-born are treated as trash and expected to sacrifice everything for the nobles. Due to this there have been rebellions (all failed) and as the nobles are generally too busy riding out on quests and such-like, Brettonia has often been on the verge of destruction due to lack of coherency. The Skaven for example have multiple times almost eradicated whole regions.

The Empire:
The Empire has an extremely long and complex history, but can be very roughly summarized in a few key points.
Sigmar, the founder of the Empire, gathered all the human tribes in his region and fought off not only arguably the greatest Waagh ever, but also Nagash himself. Each tribe leader was given a region (the precursor to Elector count system) and a sword (the symbol for each elector count). When Sigmar died a long line of Emperor's followed, with both civil war and Chaos invasion almost eradicating the Empire on repeated occasions (including the Von Carnsteins attacking the empire).

The Empire is comparable to the holy Roman empire, but is more or less a 15-16th century country, where many other races such as dwarfs and halflings live in the cities. The Empire relies on technology and sheer manpower to survive, alongside the cult of Sigmar; a religious order that seeks out the taint of Chaos. Alongside the worshippers of Sigmar you also have the worshipers of other gods, such as Ulfric. It should be noted that beyond religion and the political system, the regions of the Empire are very different. Nordland for example is basically a region in constant war due to invasions from the north and have a very brutal warrior culture going. Meanwhile Reikland is a super rich, spoiled regions of nobles throwing parties.

Basically:
Brettonia = medieval France
The Empire = The Holy Roman Empire

[EnStorEn]

Originally posted by THE_RaBiD_CanuK:

They are both "good" in theory, that's why the dwarves trade with and aid the humans so much, but in Warhammer, everything has a potential dark or contradictory side.

That is not at all why the Dwarves trade with them. That is due to the covenant between Sigmar and Ironbeard which forged a permanent alliance between the races. Dwarves do not trade with plenty of races that are good, such as elves and lizardmen.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by EnStorEn:

Originally posted by THE_RaBiD_CanuK:

They are both "good" in theory, that's why the dwarves trade with and aid the humans so much, but in Warhammer, everything has a potential dark or contradictory side.

That is not at all why the Dwarves trade with them. That is due to the covenant between Sigmar and Ironbeard which forged a permanent alliance between the races. Dwarves do not trade with plenty of races that are good, such as elves and lizardmen.

To be fair the dwarves do -not- like the elves after the whole War of the Beard/War of Vengeance thing, and the lizardmen are.. Well they're the lizardmen. They can be kind of difficult to deal with at the best of times. (Not to mention not too often leaving Lustria, and not welcoming warmblood visitors particularly often, while the dorfs are mostly based in the Old World these days)

[EnStorEn]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by EnStorEn:

That is not at all why the Dwarves trade with them. That is due to the covenant between Sigmar and Ironbeard which forged a permanent alliance between the races. Dwarves do not trade with plenty of races that are good, such as elves and lizardmen.

To be fair the dwarves do -not- like the elves after the whole War of the Beard/War of Vengeance thing, and the lizardmen are.. Well they're the lizardmen. They can be kind of difficult to deal with at the best of times.

Skinks have been known to speak the common tongue, the dwarves simply don't trust them. Dwarves did not even trade much with elves before the war of the beard. Dwarves are all about trust and they trust mankind due to Sigmar being an important figure to them as well.

[TheSwampyBogard]

Originally posted by Kaaz:

both are 'the ok guy' both have fairly bad sides to go alongside their good. id say they are fairly even on the good/evil scale

This. Bretonnia isnt really worse than the Empire, like some make them out to be. They both have things that are atrocious about their societies, but all in all could both be safely considered decent, if not good.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by EnStorEn:

Originally posted by Daliena:

To be fair the dwarves do -not- like the elves after the whole War of the Beard/War of Vengeance thing, and the lizardmen are.. Well they're the lizardmen. They can be kind of difficult to deal with at the best of times.

Skinks have been known to speak the common tongue, the dwarves simply don't trust them. Dwarves did not even trade much with elves before the war of the beard. Dwarves are all about trust and they trust mankind due to Sigmar being an important figure to them as well.

"Joining forces with Malekith of the Elves, Snorri led the Dwarfs as they hunted down and destroyed the last Chaos armies that threatened the Old World. Afterwards, trade flourishes with the Elves and the Dwarfs, growing ever richer, found many new strongholds, with Malekith and Snorri becoming fast friends."

"According to the hold's Book of Honour, during the visit of the Phoenix King, Bel-Shanaar presented the High King with a single casket of Ellyrion wine, a vintage so rich and precious that the cost of a single glass would bankrupt the average Elf lord.
..
Nevertheless, the two great kings swore an oath of friendship, and Malekith remained in Karaz-a-Karak as his king's ambassador."

"Long ago, before the time of Sigmar and Gilles le Breton, during their Age of Discovery, the High Elves had allied with many races; among them were the Dwarfs. Already a great civilisation when they first made contact with the Asur, the combination of cultures increased the stature of both races. Dwarfs were well versed in the secrets of ancient runes and made the finest weapons in the world, of which many were gifted to the Princes and Dragonlords of the Asur. The Elves taught the Dwarfs how to enchant items on their own and of arts, such as literature and poetry. Trade between the races flourished, Elven silk and steel was much valued by the Dawi, and Dwarf armour, weaponry and alcohol became a common sight in Ulthuan."

They seemed to get along nicely back during the early days.

[EnStorEn]

Originally posted by TheSwampyBogard:

Originally posted by Kaaz:

both are 'the ok guy' both have fairly bad sides to go alongside their good. id say they are fairly even on the good/evil scale

This. Bretonnia isnt really worse than the Empire, like some make them out to be. They both have things that are atrocious about their societies, but all in all could both be safely considered decent, if not good.

Eh, the Empire doesn't really have such an extreme divide between low-born and nobles. In Brettonia you are basically a slave if you are born a peasant. In the Empire you have traders, craftsmen, researchers etc that have come from nothing.

[Franz]

Neither are "good guys", they are the good guys in the grimdark setting of WH, even if nowadays the worst stuff is downplayed a lot (it isn't as original and cool in 2020 as it was in the '90s).
In Bretonnia a single horse is more important than all the peasants of the village, probably eats more than all of then combined too. The Empire is full of inquisitors who'll happily burn said village instead if someone they suspect could know a heretic spent one night there last week.

[EnStorEn]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by EnStorEn:

Skinks have been known to speak the common tongue, the dwarves simply don't trust them. Dwarves did not even trade much with elves before the war of the beard. Dwarves are all about trust and they trust mankind due to Sigmar being an important figure to them as well.

"Joining forces with Malekith of the Elves, Snorri led the Dwarfs as they hunted down and destroyed the last Chaos armies that threatened the Old World. Afterwards, trade flourishes with the Elves and the Dwarfs, growing ever richer, found many new strongholds, with Malekith and Snorri becoming fast friends."

"According to the hold's Book of Honour, during the visit of the Phoenix King, Bel-Shanaar presented the High King with a single casket of Ellyrion wine, a vintage so rich and precious that the cost of a single glass would bankrupt the average Elf lord.
..
Nevertheless, the two great kings swore an oath of friendship, and Malekith remained in Karaz-a-Karak as his king's ambassador."

Long ago, before the time of Sigmar and Gilles le Breton, during their Age of Discovery, the High Elves had allied with many races; among them were the Dwarfs. Already a great civilisation when they first made contact with the Asur, the combination of cultures increased the stature of both races. Dwarfs were well versed in the secrets of ancient runes and made the finest weapons in the world, of which many were gifted to the Princes and Dragonlords of the Asur. The Elves taught the Dwarfs how to enchant items on their own and of arts, such as literature and poetry. Trade between the races flourished, Elven silk and steel was much valued by the Dawi, and Dwarf armour, weaponry and alcohol became a common sight in Ulthuan.

They seemed to get along nicely back during the early days.

Yeah, REALLY early. Keep in mind that this was the same era when Lizardmen actively had dealings with elves as well. All this is before 1th edition, which is when everything was happy and nice and everyone sang songs together.

Then everything became grim. Because Warhammer.

[EnStorEn]

Originally posted by Franz:

Neither are "good guys", they are the good guys in the grimdark setting of WH, even if nowadays the worst stuff is downplayed a lot (it isn't as original and cool in 2020 as it was in the '90s).
In Bretonnia a single horse is more important than all the peasants of the village, probably eats more than all of then combined too. The Empire is full of inquisitors who'll happily burn said village instead if someone they suspect could know a heretic spent one night there last week.

Difference is that said inquisitors aren't burning 99% of all the villages, all of the time. In Brettonia peasants are always treated like animals.