vampire counts bloodline

[Karsh]

just started a new von carstein campaign and i'm curious. what bloodline do people open up first, or what bloodline is considered best to unlock first ?

i'm going for the strigoi ( the one that gives 60 % less public order if you do not have enough corruption) then i'm going for the von carstein line for the public order and ranged units.

[Ser Pounce]

Originally posted by Karsh:

just started a new von carstein campaign and i'm curious. what bloodline do people open up first, or what bloodline is considered best to unlock first ?

i'm going for the strigoi ( the one that gives 60 % less public order if you do not have enough corruption) then i'm going for the von carstein line for the public order and ranged units.

I either rush the last tier of the Blood Dragon bloodline or the Strigoi one. Then, after that I just go for the necrarch. Those are the best imo. You can also take the tier 1 from the Lhamian bloodline to spam necro and you'll never ever have money issues.

[RCMidas]

To completion? None really. I try to rush getting a Necrarch out so that I can pump my research to diplomacy bonuses, then upkeep and rank bonuses, as quickly as possible. Afterwards, it tends to be more a case of what do I think I need more? By the time I can afford to complete a tier it's unlikely that I'll need to have done so with the Strigoi, since I'll have sent over a few stacks to wipe Morathi and Alith so that I can hold Quintex happily.

Most likely to go for a sequence of (N)ecrarch - (S)trigoi - (L)ahmia - (B)lood Dragon - N - N - S - B - B - L - L - (V)on Carstein - V - V - S

[Shirome Artiste]

Oof. Initially I tend to grab VC and BD lords, simply because they tend to offer the biggest bang for their buck(Amazing fighters and great as they gain more levels and initially you've got lots of weak factions to bully for free xp) in terms of both actual leader boons and their faction effects(Replenishment is ALWAYS nice when your units are absolute trash. Easy veterancy on everything means your skeletons are a little bit less utter garbage).



After that I grab necrarch for the research boon and then grab all 3 lahmians. By then you're building up a couple provinces so it's worth parking necros in every province you own. Also lahmians have some pretty good skills themselves but rely less on getting a lot of skills to become utter monsters.

Honestly I mostly skip strigoi. PO bonuses/penalties hardly matters past the earlygame and your early-earlygame mostly plays at/around Sylvania. If I'm playing silver host it's a different story because you're in untainted central in the desert, but the main VC really don't need to rush strigoi at any point imo. Early you're in Sylvania, later any potential rebellion is just free levels for your lords if whatever province you're conquering hasn't already 50+ or more corruption via osmosis.

[Gentlest Giant]

Necrarch for research is universally good to start with. Von Carstein's level 1 is a lot of power right away though. Von Carstein level 2 is also super powerful - these three are always my first picks.
Lahmia 1 is good when the hero capacity goes up.
After these I'm looking towards Strigoi 3, then Necrarch 3.
Blood Dragon does not offer anything that makes up for the massive benefits of the above mentioned perks so I'll take that last. One point to get the lord is fine I guess.

Essentially Strigoi 2 + 3 are the best abilities of them all but everything I recommend before it is "low-hanging fruit" that gives good value for less of a cost.

[Ashley]

I usually go Necarch first just for the reasearch and then Lahmia for the lord and upkeep decrease. Usually then focus Necarch for the upkeep decrease so I can get every little bit of extra income I can so when my capitals are level 4 I can rush the income buildings and rapidly expand so I can further expand. I usually then get one lord of each then max strigoi.

I rush necarch cause the free skeletons are excellent and the extra 30% to the vampire and necromancer building are huge. And it all works out since i'm usually just about ready to start rolling out those buildings by the time i'm starting the research or very close to it.

[Sir uP]

I get research rate first since the earlier you get it the more valuable it becomes.

Then I go for replenishment.

Then I go for upkeep reductions.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Sir ♥♥♥♥♥foot:

I get research rate first since the earlier you get it the more valuable it becomes.

Then I go for replenishment.

Then I go for upkeep reductions.

Reserach really isn't more valuable early. The thing about research rate is that a 25 percent increase in research rate does not mean you will research 25 percent faster. All technologies seem to take an exact number of turns at 100 percent research rate. So if a tech takes 4 turns to research, with 25 percent increased research it will still take 4 turns. You'll only get actual benfeits at 5 turns.

Most people go for the free skeleton tech. Its been a while since I looked at it, but I remember looking at the techs and there was only one or two of them that actually took 5 or more turns (the first point where 125 percent research rate actually decreases the time to research a tech). So if you rush that tech, you're saving maybe 1-2 turns of research rate.

So in the end if you push back necrach 20 turns, you'll always be back a couple turns in research. But this can be true of the other techs. If 20 percent casualty replenishment allows you to push forward instead of replenishing for a turn or 2, you'll be ahead 1-2 turns in conquering. Or if public order bonuses prevent a rebellion, or if you win a battle cause of that 10 percent weapon strength on cav (although this buff is pretty small so its unlikely to decide a battle).

25 percent research rate also becomes less valuable later on because at least last time I played them vampires had access to students and archivists. Which means by turn 20-30 you might already be at 200 percent research rate, where a 25 percent increase is only turning 9 turn techs into 8. Although in a way this also makes getting the techs early better because a lot of early techs are 4 turns, and a single archivist with the necrach bonus with reduce that.

So its technically more valuable the earlier you get it, because you'll always be a few turns ahead in tech. But thats true of all buffs, because presumably you are using them to put yourself in a better position.

What I would say about research bonus is it consistently puts you ahead in tech, whereas the other ones can easily be useless (like if you get casualty replenishment and none of your armies take much damage, or the weapon strength on cav is rarely deciding a battle). Same thing with upkeep reduction, its consistently good rather than conditionally very useful but often useless.

[Karsh]

ty for the replies guy's it seems everyone hs their own idea of what to go first. will remember this next time i start a campaign and will go for a other blood line start to see if it fits my playstyle ^^

[RCMidas]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by Sir ♥♥♥♥♥foot:

I get research rate first since the earlier you get it the more valuable it becomes.

Then I go for replenishment.

Then I go for upkeep reductions.

Reserach really isn't more valuable early. The thing about research rate is that a 25 percent increase in research rate does not mean you will research 25 percent faster. All technologies seem to take an exact number of turns at 100 percent research rate. So if a tech takes 4 turns to research, with 25 percent increased research it will still take 4 turns. You'll only get actual benfeits at 5 turns.

I concur. On the other hand, once you get yourself Ghorst and a couple of good opportunities at Thorgrim, that can really help to stack things in your favour there. Even beating Thorgrim once with a Necrarch and Ghorst on the field can halve your research times. Yes, it's one skill point you won't get back, but he's not exactly going to still NOT be a powerhouse if you spend it elsewhere.

Besides, the best thing about going for research over replenishment is that the Vampire Counts already have a tactic to counter heavy losses, and it's called taking all the heavy losses you can bear to in order to raise significantly stronger undead from the famous battle sites WAY before you can recruit them normally. Throwaway lords with just zombies are a valid strategy almost.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Reserach really isn't more valuable early. The thing about research rate is that a 25 percent increase in research rate does not mean you will research 25 percent faster. All technologies seem to take an exact number of turns at 100 percent research rate. So if a tech takes 4 turns to research, with 25 percent increased research it will still take 4 turns. You'll only get actual benfeits at 5 turns.

I concur. On the other hand, once you get yourself Ghorst and a couple of good opportunities at Thorgrim, that can really help to stack things in your favour there. Even beating Thorgrim once with a Necrarch and Ghorst on the field can halve your research times. Yes, it's one skill point you won't get back, but he's not exactly going to still NOT be a powerhouse if you spend it elsewhere.

Besides, the best thing about going for research over replenishment is that the Vampire Counts already have a tactic to counter heavy losses, and it's called taking all the heavy losses you can bear to in order to raise significantly stronger undead from the famous battle sites WAY before you can recruit them normally. Throwaway lords with just zombies are a valid strategy almost.

Well I never get ghorst playing von carsteins. Unless theres a way to confed vampire counts before turn 10 or so they're just not worth it when a blood dragon is arguably better than mannfred anyways (worse magic, but a bit better combat and large upkeep reductions on core units), and also arguably better than ghorst (who only really has poison for his army going for him, and I guess the mortis engine mount is nice). And even then you'd have to wait to get ghorst cause he won't be recruited. I'd rather just start snowballing off the gold mine and the vamp heros than wait for lord who isn't really stronger than bloodlines anyways .

Also its only halving your research rate if you didn't get students and archivists. They're so easy to get on vampires cause you can get heros so easily and just have them gain levels. But I get the point is vampires have tons of ways to increase research, so you don't necessarily need the tech.

[Karsh]

von carsteins don't have ghosrt it's vlad and issabella :P

[VoiD]

25% research is nice early, if you plan on recruiting and investing in lords blood dragons, best bloodline by far, in fact they are better than most legendary lords counting all factions in the game. no attrition helps a lot too.

[Sir uP]

I dont understand cacomistle... research rate you want early because that's when it effects the most technology. If you get it when half the tree is done it is not as useful because it could have helped you with the first half... same reason why upkeep or economy buildings are more useful the early you get them because every turn they pay dividends.

[RCMidas]

Unless you can get enough bonuses to actually reduce research times, having that one Bloodlines boost very early will still not help you until close to 40 or 50 turns in - by which time you may have found that having a different active Bloodline would have helped you expand faster, thus allowing your settlements to grow faster, thus allowing you to have started building the Necromancer Libraries and Towers for extra research in every province capitol; or even just a bunch of Ossuaries to recruit necromancers from minor settlements and use them to level up, steal research from other factions, and gain ancillaries that boost research still further.

It's a VERY expensive method, the latter one, but is even more effective at providing sudden and massive boosts to your research times once you get it all rolling. It does require that you have a very strong economy however, and almost requires you to prioritise the 0% upkeep tech and spam armies like that.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Sir ♥♥♥♥♥foot:

I dont understand cacomistle... research rate you want early because that's when it effects the most technology. If you get it when half the tree is done it is not as useful because it could have helped you with the first half... same reason why upkeep or economy buildings are more useful the early you get them because every turn they pay dividends.

Everything affects you early. If you take an extra city early because your army replenished faster, you can then use the benefits of that city to snowball. Research is just a consistent bonus, whereas you could lose the city or fail to capitalize on the extra money/whatever.

The reason I say the research rate isn't necessarily that great is 2 fold. 1, it doesn't hit any significant breakpoints on a lot of early techs (for example its useless by itself on any tech that takes under 5 turns, or on a 9 turn tech its effectively only 12.5% bonus). Once you hit later techs that take like 15-20 turns, it gets a lot closer to an actual 25 percent research rate.

The other reason is because vamps can get large research bonuses quite early on. A 25 percent research rate on top of 500 percent research rate doesn't really mean anything. Although this does mean that with a single student and the necrach bonus you go from gaining a bonus on 5 turn techs to 4 turn techs, and I think a couple of the early techs are 4 turns.

I'm not claiming research is bad early. Its fine. But I don't believe its an obvious choice. On von carsteins I actually probably would go necrach, or lahmian cause they can get a lot of heros early. On kemmler, I'd go blood dragon cause they make way more effective lord choices and he isn't a combat lord himself, and he doesn't start with the ability to build vargheists so black knights are pretty good. I'd value the early power and getting a lord to a high level more than a couple turns worth of techs. And all that aside I might value replenishment rate because if I can expand just a couple turns faster as a result, that might give me the income I need to snowball before techs even kick in.

Basically the real reason I don't think its as good as people think is because most people go for free skeletons first now. If you get necrarch super early you'll notice something. The turns required to get that tech goes down by like 1 or 2. The advantages you get from other trees can (but won't necessarily) end up larger than that.