Skaven are still useless without late game units. (on very hard)

[Exactly 150 Snails]

is it really that hard for CA to balance out the early game for skavens so it's an actual possibility to get through it without doing everything to perfection?

campaign wise, i'm instantly at war with upwards of 4 factions (counting overly strong rebels) as clan pestilence. there's no deviation from that over 4 seperate new game starts. the clan you are at war with will somehow magicly bring loremasters of hoeth and A LIZARDMEN faction aganst you while they are being slowly pummeled by the new dark elves sea lord (pardon for forgetting his name).

meanwhile i'm stuck with nothing but clanrats against vastly superior (and buffed units on very hard). 80% of battles are spent just trying to regain control of units routing at 70% health, trying to have a smidgen of something one would call a battle line. instead the center units will just crumble (without actually crumbling) and the AI then bumrushes through to the artillery.

It's not a battle for victory, it's a battle for holding the army together at all times.

i just don't see the fun in having to rush 3-4 full stacks of skavenslaves just in order to beat early game armies. 2 full stacks of mostly clanrats jsut won't do it. not even against OTHER SKAVEN.

in one battle i had an AI army attack me with less than half my numbers and similar quality of units and still win due to half my army just insta routing from the get go and the fact that their rat ogres both managed to get 300 kills each while my own group only got about 60..

plague monks will consistently loose to Clan rats and my own clan rats will loose decisively in a 1v1 scenario (40% HP vs 70% hp left)

there isn't any other faction with these issues outside maybe norsca.

Edit 1: Edited title to clarify something people kept missing :(

Edit 2: i've been playing skaven in many different ways and i enjoy their roster overall. the problem i have basicly stems from a start that is extraordinarely unforgiving with multiple legendary lords declaring war within the first 4-5 turns and multiple smaller factions following along.

[Hannibal Barca]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Exactly 150 Snails:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hannibal Barca:

I dont get it why does everything have to be balanced? 2 countries go to war one says "We dont have tanks" other country says "oh that's not balanced wars off everybody go home"

because games doesn't work like real life.

no total war game is truly balanced between all factions. far from it. Som are deliberately challenging in some of the historical ones.

this one, however, is not historical and the balance between factions should be fairly similar within the quirks of the factions. no faction should be massively better than another faction in its entirety.

roster wise they have done a great job between the factions in TW:W2, but campaign wise, some of the factions lack the balance for a fun and challenging playthrough.

take me playing as skaven as an example. i have beaten the game with every faction bar Skaven and brettonia.

i don't enjoy brettonias roster so i simply jsut don't play them.

skaven i just can never get a start rolling. i might be playing them wrong, but even if i did, i still see a glaring issue when a clanrat group is winning over plague monks in a 1v1 engagement and when my entire army instantly breaks, while the oponent is playing a seamingly normal army with normal morale.

so it's not just an issue of inter-faction balance, it's a flaw in the difficulty parameter itself that makes skaven seamingly a lot worse of than other factions.

Skaven are strong, just not in the line up and slug it out sense that everyone thinks is suppose to be. They have the best "artillery" in the game hands down. Rat Orge fast flankers even the doomwheel can rack up tons of kills.
and NO faction donot have to be balance because some people like a challenge, it would be boring if every faction was equal. Crooked Moon legendary was one of my best experiences in totalwar not because it was easy but because it was hard.

[VoiD]

First try with Skaven was legendary, mortal empires and queek, very hard starting position, got stuck fighting at all fronts for many turns until an opportunity rose, though mostly my issue was being surrounded by all sides and, due to legendary dif maintenance ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I couldn't just raise multiple armies to protect everything, so I had to leap around a lot with a single army.

Winning battles was no problem honestly, either rush ogre rats to function like cav or the siege building to spam their artillery which may be the best in the entire game and you'll be fine, if you need some extra muscle raise a 2nd support army with 19 skaven slaves just to overwhelm the enemy and put fear into their hearts, even dwarves ended up fleeting when the horde gets just too big.

Late game lightning cannon spam was king, doomweels aren pretty good as well but most armies were dying to 100% ambush chance on attack before they even touched my frontlines, half my armies were lightning cannons, honestly it's OP, that kind of army can take down chaos 60 vs 20 without major issues if positioning is good enough, even HE dragon stacks are no problem for cannons.

Honestly I've only managed to make armies this OP with wood elves, and skaven might still be stronger.

[Pansa]

I agree that the 3-4 stack clanrat/ slave build seems to work the best early game. It seems to fit thematically to me as well. Even as a tabletop lover of Skaven they were difficult to get into as a faction in game, but I would say they are one of the more rewarding ones to play as once you figure them out. I can see how people wouldn't enjoy it though, I didn't touch them for a long time in campain.

[Exactly 150 Snails]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hannibal Barca:

and NO faction donot have to be balance because some people like a challenge.

the challenge comes in the position, the economy and the factions in the starting area. the roster itself has to be balanced (which is fairly balanced) but there are some things just completely out of whack.

i have not seen such a huge difference in unit performance between my own vs AI units of the same type as i have seen with skaven.

if i see my own non-buffed clanrat unit go against a difficulty buffed clanrat unit go 1v1, i do expect mine to loose if not supported. what i don't expect to see (which i haven't experienced with any other faction) is a difference in performance by over 40%.

that easely lead to the AI's clanrats overperforming heavely and in a few circumstances they would even beat plague monks.

that would essentially be the same as having a chaos maurader win against a chaos warrior in a 1v1..

[Ashley]

Początkowo opublikowane przez AVGAMER:

because its a game with a competetive scene.

Like literally the 10 people who care about competitive

[Exactly 150 Snails]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shaggy:

Początkowo opublikowane przez AVGAMER:

because its a game with a competetive scene.

Like literally the 10 people who care about competitive

there's like what. 3 small playerled tournaments with no price pool and about a hand full of streamers and a hand full youtubers playing competitively.

[Despiser]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Dr. Uncredible:

What´s with everyone demanding to beat any campaign on Very Hard?

He doesn’t say what level. That would be the first step is to drop one unless it would be to easy and I doubt anyone would play that other than as a tutorial.

[Samuro]

I think skaven factions should have more campaign effects, maybe by default, since they can't even recruit on high level as most factions, hardly get campaign effects by special buildings and also just for variety. Clan Pestilence could have a focus on Plagueunits for example and Mors on Warriortypes so you don't use the same units all the time.

[AVGAMER]

I can see a race wide revamp to the skaven in this patch.

[Chillum]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Exactly 150 Snails:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hannibal Barca:

I dont get it why does everything have to be balanced? 2 countries go to war one says "We dont have tanks" other country says "oh that's not balanced wars off everybody go home"

because games doesn't work like real life.
.

Should be a lord pack incoming. AFAIK we dont know which skaven we are getting, but my bets on Ikit.

And some very tasty skyre units. Would love me some jezzails.

[Sn3z]

I give you some tips:

*You can kill the DE by turn 3-4
*You should make peace with Clan Eshin ASAP
*Use the treasures on the sea(not the skulls!) for some nice battle buffs
*Get Oxyl to T3 and build Enginering for Plague Claw Catapults.
*After battles take the food and build it up.

I get your point generally with Skaven you do need to get to T3 before you can fully develop your armies, but I think part of the problem is the assassins chain its really redundant because artillery is so accessible, I would say Plague claws could be moved to T4 and put in the Plagues chain. Now that artillery is harder to get CA would have to room to play around T2-T4 and should really try to make some incentive to use skirmishers it could be lowering the upkeep and trying to make some more synergy with other chains. This would help aswell when they introduce new units especially around T3. I have a feeling that with all these potential Skryre unit additions things might get worse for Skaven in terms of different play-styles they really should then decouple the stormvermin from the Engineering chain to lessen its appeal.

[Exactly 150 Snails]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sn3z:

I give you some tips:

*You can kill the DE by turn 3-4
*You should make peace with Clan Eshin ASAP
*Use the treasures on the sea(not the skulls!) for some nice battle buffs
*Get Oxyl to T3 and build Enginering for Plague Claw Catapults.
*After battles take the food and build it up.

i've tried a few things now.

if you rush arty, the blessed dread will attack you early on, but hoeth and the lixards leave you alone.

if you mass clanrats and slaves early on, you will get a trade partner with the blessed dread and hoeth and the lizards will be dragged in.

the only thing in common between the 2 routes i've experienced is that an unseen lizard clan always goes to war with you.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sn3z:

and should really try to make some incentive to use skirmishers it could be lowering the upkeep and trying to make some more synergy with other chains

they really just need to buff them.

skaven slingers (be they clanrats, slaves or some of the better ones) are generally the worst skirmishers you could ever field.

they all have the following things in common:
very low missile damage
very low accuracy
lowish ammo count
mediocre range
barely any special attributes
mediocre rate of fire

if their artillery wasn't as good as it is, skaven would be *the worst* ranged faction in the game, bar vampire counts (and only because vamps doesn't have ranged units).

gutter runners are also pretty bad considering they aren't all that fast and have terrible range, so you can't effectively use them in hit and run tactics. despite the fact that they can fire on the move.

[Dr. Uncredible]

"i've tried a few things now.

if you rush arty, the blessed dread will attack you early on, but hoeth and the lixards leave you alone.

if you mass clanrats and slaves early on, you will get a trade partner with the blessed dread and hoeth and the lizards will be dragged in.

the only thing in common between the 2 routes i've experienced is that an unseen lizard clan always goes to war with you."
---------

Chance -is- a factor in TWW2, your neighbours don´t really care wehter you rush A or amass B, they -do- care about the estimated strength of your armies, how much they like/hate you, how well fortified your cities are and where your amies are compared to theirs.

Afraid I don´t know how strong the AI considers different units.

But one thing I´ve definitely learnt is that if the AI dislike you and see an opportunity to take a city they will war you.
The best friend you can have in warhammer diplomacy is walled cities.

[Gentlest Giant]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Exactly 150 Snails:

gutter runners are also pretty bad considering they aren't all that fast and have terrible range, so you can't effectively use them in hit and run tactics. despite the fact that they can fire on the move.

Huh. Have you tried to actually use them like this? They are among the fastest infantry in the game and slows down anything close to them without any manual input. That and optional poison means they are at the relative speed of slower cavalry.
I've frequently been using armies of only gutter runners much like some people like to spam Lothern Seaguard or something. They work very well.

[Ser Pounce]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Exactly 150 Snails:

they really just need to buff them.

skaven slingers (be they clanrats, slaves or some of the better ones) are generally the worst skirmishers you could ever field.

they all have the following things in common:
very low missile damage
very low accuracy
lowish ammo count
mediocre range
barely any special attributes
mediocre rate of fire

if their artillery wasn't as good as it is, skaven would be *the worst* ranged faction in the game, bar vampire counts (and only because vamps doesn't have ranged units).

gutter runners are also pretty bad considering they aren't all that fast and have terrible range, so you can't effectively use them in hit and run tactics. despite the fact that they can fire on the move.

Don't ever use slave slingers. You can even skip slingers completely. They are not bad. It's just that there are betters options.

Gutter runners, especially the poison variants, can kite almost any enemy units for days given their high speed and the poison. They are also pretty competent in melee (by skaven standards) so they can always swoop in to kill some archers and then just keep bombarding the back of the enemy frontline without any risks of retaliation (since they can't be catched if the enemy turns back in an attempt to stop them).

Just get 10-12 clanrats. Some gutter runners and a bit of artillery (which you should get asap) and you're on already. Plagueclaw catapults are freaking killing machine - as long you protect them. just keep firing at the enemy, it doesn't matter if you hit your own units. They will rout and come back eventually anyway. That's all you need. End-game units are nice and all but you don't really need them ultimately.

Later on, you have even better tools : plague monks to shred through mid-tier enemy infantry. Death globe globadiers who will melt ANY infantry in the game within SECONDS (no, really, I'm not exaggerating), Doom Wheels who can destroy infantry, ranged units and lords all the same, death runner who can take on the most armored enemy and came out on top.

if you can get passed the early game, the skavens are a blast.