The Ogre Kingdoms Problem and Bonus vs. Large in Total War Warhammer 3

[victorlopezdelosmozogomez]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYghYPulXyE&t=0s

I bring you to the cave the debates, news, speculation from outside

What do you think about the concerns of Indie?

[Dr. Uncredible]

Първоначално публикувано от victorlopezdelosmozogomez:

I don't know, I don't see greenskins, hobgoblins and gnoblars... maybe we see generic goblins

Ogres already have gnoblars in the lore though, why give them generic goblins?

[victorlopezdelosmozogomez]

Първоначално публикувано от Dr. Uncredible:

Първоначално публикувано от victorlopezdelosmozogomez:

I don't know, I don't see greenskins, hobgoblins and gnoblars... maybe we see generic goblins

Ogres already have gnoblars in the lore though, why give them generic goblins?

Do you think CA is gonna make three different greenskins factions? have you seen the actual state of the greenskins?

[Dr. Uncredible]

Първоначално публикувано от victorlopezdelosmozogomez:

Първоначално публикувано от Dr. Uncredible:

Ogres already have gnoblars in the lore though, why give them generic goblins?

Do you think CA is gonna make three different greenskins factions? have you seen the actual state of the greenskins?

Faction? Who´s suggested gnoblars be a faction?
They´ll be an affordable tier 1 meatshield in the ogre roster.

Maybe there´ll be other gnoblar units as well, but mainly they´ll be there to keep the ogres from being mobbed to death.

[Sn3z]

Gnoblars would help to straighten out the faction and CA can take liberties on creating units that can fill gaps in the roster, ranged units like scrap launchers, flingers and trappers.

[Kaaz]

this isnt in question, there will be gnoblars, they are an integral part of the ogre kingdoms roster

[Wyvern]

Първоначално публикувано от Sn3z:

Gnoblars would help to straighten out the faction and CA can take liberties on creating units that can fill gaps in the roster, ranged units like scrap launchers, flingers and trappers.

Another good point. CA has taken some creative liberties in filling out deficient rosters like Brettonia and the Tomb Kings with units to help compensate for certain weaknesses, and there's no reason this shouldnt happen with ogre kingdoms.

[Major Moolah]

I saw the video before already, and there was a good point in there. Monstrous infantry - only armies do not work. They are meant to supplement the normal infantry and having Ogres charge into a Spearmen line and get stopped by charge defense and melted by cheap and plentiful Anti-Large would make the Ogres helpless. Remember that the anti-large bonus also buffs Melee Attack when fighting large targets. The video made a point how the Ogre Kingdoms tabletop bonus could translate into Ogres being able to ignore charge defense would be a good thing. Maybe they could also mitigate the anti-large somehow?

[Wyvern]

Първоначално публикувано от Major Moolah:

I saw the video before already, and there was a good point in there. Monstrous infantry - only armies do not work. They are meant to supplement the normal infantry and having Ogres charge into a Spearmen line and get stopped by charge defense and melted by cheap and plentiful Anti-Large would make the Ogres helpless. Remember that the anti-large bonus also buffs Melee Attack when fighting large targets. The video made a point how the Ogre Kingdoms tabletop bonus could translate into Ogres being able to ignore charge defense would be a good thing. Maybe they could also mitigate the anti-large somehow?

In campaign, you can easily run monstrous infantry only lists for several factions so ogres being that way wouldn't matter. In MP, you can use cheap trash to de-brace units and then charge them.

Personally I really don't like the idea of unit strengths being invalidated just to make life easier for a certain faction.

For a list with hordes of SEM's, blackpowder weapons in probably a similar arrangement to ushabti greatbows and cheap trash to disrupt and bog units down, I really don't think it will be that difficult to do well.

[Sn3z]

Първоначално публикувано от Dr. Uncredible:

Първоначално публикувано от victorlopezdelosmozogomez:

Do you think CA is gonna make three different greenskins factions? have you seen the actual state of the greenskins?

Faction? Who´s suggested gnoblars be a faction?
They´ll be an affordable tier 1 meatshield in the ogre roster.

Maybe there´ll be other gnoblar units as well, but mainly they´ll be there to keep the ogres from being mobbed to death.

Gnoblars will extend most likely into T3 which makes me think we see quite a few different units. Gnoblar melee infantry will fall off around T3 much like goblin melee infantry does for greenskins but the ranged units or more specailised units like trappers might still be useful.

At T3-T4(I would go T4) I guessing we start to see leadbelchers and maybe different variants (if that's possible).

[Major Moolah]

Campaign stacks are a different story. In a vanilla game, AI makes the stacks randomly and then uses really straightforward tactics. So yes, you could make a Skarsnik stack of 20 trolls and have success. In MP it is different.

You could use Gnoblars, of course, but in lore and TT they are basically Gobbos and accordingly weak, so having to rely on them is... problematic.

In TT Ogres had a unique charge bonus and that is their thing, so to say. So giving them the unique ability of mitigating charge bonuses would be fluffy and on paper it would not break the meta. This is all theory at the moment, obviously, but I do have to give kudos to the video maker for identifying a problem

[victorlopezdelosmozogomez]

Първоначално публикувано от Sn3z:

Първоначално публикувано от Dr. Uncredible:

Faction? Who´s suggested gnoblars be a faction?
They´ll be an affordable tier 1 meatshield in the ogre roster.

Maybe there´ll be other gnoblar units as well, but mainly they´ll be there to keep the ogres from being mobbed to death.

Gnoblars will extend most likely into T3 which makes me think we see quite a few different units. Gnoblar melee infantry will fall off around T3 much like goblin melee infantry does for greenskins but the ranged units or more specailised units like trappers might still be useful.

At T3-T4(I would go T4) I guessing we start to see leadbelchers and maybe different variants (if that's possible).

I'm looking the gnoblars and goblins' stats in the 8th edition and they are exactly the same

[Sn3z]

Първоначално публикувано от victorlopezdelosmozogomez:

Първоначално публикувано от Sn3z:

Gnoblars will extend most likely into T3 which makes me think we see quite a few different units. Gnoblar melee infantry will fall off around T3 much like goblin melee infantry does for greenskins but the ranged units or more specailised units like trappers might still be useful.

At T3-T4(I would go T4) I guessing we start to see leadbelchers and maybe different variants (if that's possible).

I'm looking the gnoblars and goblins' stats in the 8th edition and they are exactly the same

I'm not sure what your point is exaclty. Ogre kingdoms have a issue with too much large. Gnoblars would then need to be worked into the roster (T1-T3) (think how skinks change from T1-T3) .They would have to be tailored to mitigate the large weakness as much as possible so that's not just adding a meatshield unit, it could be very interesting but how CA do this I have no idea and even if I did its all speculation at this stage.

I watched the video, the idea is ok when its comes to solving the large problem but Gnoblars are being passed off a merely a meatshield unit, that is imo a missed opportunity and would make Ogre kingdoms very 1D.

[Sir uP]

Stupid to speculate before they are even out...

Bring anti large vs ogres and not bringing vs dwarfs is a gameplay choice. Adds variety.

Ogres should struggle vs strong anti large but there is no reason they won't be more and less viable against other factions.

And as others and indypride have mentioned, you just slap some form of charge defence or anti large immunity on them (tech, lord skills, built in attribute for some units)

[Dr. Uncredible]

Eh, nothing wrong with taking the ol´ theoretical thinking on a jog.
Provided one remembers that we´re all likely to be wrong. ^^

[RCMidas]

Ogre-only armies vs anti-large will face the same problem that Bretonnian knights-only armies will face, except that the ogres have the advantage of cannons as their ranged personnel weapons.