Archaon The Everchosen is bad? And who could Defeat Him?

[Donut]

Anyone else agree Archaon is kind bad? it seems that compared to other lords he either falls behind or is slightly better and his stats dont really make him feel like the bringer of the end times :( why isnt he stronger?

[Archarius]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Archaon is not extraordinary by dint of his combat prowess but because he unites chaos and has a ♥♥♥♥ ton of magical/demonic help. Grimgor kicks his ass and its entirely possible characters like kholek, settra, durthu, gilles or tyrion would also pose a serious threat. Or hell a warplock jezzail to the face would probably also pose a serious threat. Ultimately most of these strongest arguments boil down to personal bias, especially given bothe the slanted take on each lord/faction in their rules and the garbage writing thats a hallmark of many old world, especially end times stories

Sure... fighting bloodthirsters alone isn't much of combat prowess... just regular thing, nothing special.

[Cortex]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by Cortex Σ:

If you're talking End Times Archaon, he's Mary Sue'd to hell and back by the writers, tldr the chaos gods all decided to juice him up in a DBZ tier power up.

Pre-End Times (which is the only times that matter), Archaon is a legendary warrior, but not the greatest warrior or mage. And it's not through combat alone that he's powerful, but his cunning and plotting to unite all the chaos worshippers, otherwise what would set him apart from a Khornite jobber?

And even if taking the End Times into consideration, he dueled Grimgor for 3 days straight and was losing ground, he had to summon the power of a greater demon in his blade to end the fight. Grimgor is not even the strongest warrior in the settings, so there it is.

Well to be honest, whenever these duels last days, I just find it kind of ridiculous. Its not serious at that point anymore.

Like seriously think about it. You've trained yourself to the point a ton, all your actions are faster and more powerful. And the fight takes longer? They should be throwing out like 10x the amount of swings humans would. And they've got these legendary weapons that we know can cut through flesh.

The only way a fight could possibly take 3 days between warriors of this calliber considering their strength isn't having skin stronger than armor is either .0000000001 percent pure luck where neither of them can get an advantage, or some sort of ambush hit and run tactics (which I feel Archaeon would be too proud to do this vs a lowly orc, and for sure Grimgor isn't doing this).

I swear if the 2 most legendary snipers in existence were fighting it out in a fantasy setting, it would somehow be 3 days of constant back and forth shooting. Not even 3 days of searching for the first shot, but actual back and forth with them dodging each others bullets or some stupid ♥♥♥♥ like that. Even though if they're really that good, the first bullet fired would almost certainly kill.

So my point is that the whole thing is so ridiculous honestly "Archaeon is Da Best" logic sort of fits in. Trying to talk about how strong characters actually are is pointless, because if the universe used logic that fight would probably last a minute tops.

Writing was never GW's forte. And ironically, Alith Anar stopped a raging Khaine possessed Tyrion with one arrow snipe.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Archa0n:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Archaon is not extraordinary by dint of his combat prowess but because he unites chaos and has a ♥♥♥♥ ton of magical/demonic help. Grimgor kicks his ass and its entirely possible characters like kholek, settra, durthu, gilles or tyrion would also pose a serious threat. Or hell a warplock jezzail to the face would probably also pose a serious threat. Ultimately most of these strongest arguments boil down to personal bias, especially given bothe the slanted take on each lord/faction in their rules and the garbage writing thats a hallmark of many old world, especially end times stories

Sure... fighting bloodthirsters alone isn't much of combat prowess... just regular thing, nothing special.

More than Archaeon do this or equivalent feets. We are comparing his success to all the chaos chosen who are not successful and aren't the everchosen. The strongest khorne champions probably possess similar strength, but they aren't everchosen because they can't unite chaos.

Besides, any character can make accomplishments far past their logical capabilities in the Warhammer universe as the post above gives an example.

[Archarius]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by Archa0n:

Sure... fighting bloodthirsters alone isn't much of combat prowess... just regular thing, nothing special.

More than Archaeon do this or equivalent feets. We are comparing his success to all the chaos chosen who are not successful and aren't the everchosen. The strongest khorne champions probably possess similar strength, but they aren't everchosen because they can't unite chaos.

As I said, nothing special right?

[FRY THE BRAIN]

Archaon the Neverchosen... but Kholek is too overpowered, and Sigvald is ... Sigvald.

[Infrasound]

It was probably 10? years ago in the early days of YT, someone did a who would win and got all the lords from all armies and for some reason added a Bloodthirster (not a named one a vanilla one). Many 1 v 1 me bro's later... the BT kicked the ever living ♥♥♥♥ out of every single named character in the WH universe, both 40k and Oldentimes... lol

Probably doesn't help that GW can literally retcon a decade or fluff in one go because Grandfather Jervis decides entimes works so they did it for 40k as well to sell more models.

[sydknee]

"Pathetic mortals" he (Sindri Myr) says, in regards to Giles le Breton, who came back to life after being an aetherial, immortal spirit who came to battle out of basically nothingness. What a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ square.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Fry The Brain:

Archaon the Neverchosen... but Kholek is too overpowered, and Sigvald is ... Sigvald.

Oi Sigvald is beautiful his a lover at heart

[iPhail]

Can't call a lord that can solo a mid-high tier 20 stack when built correctly.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by iPhailツ twitch.tv/iphail86:

Can't call a lord that can solo a mid-high tier 20 stack when built correctly.

Well theres actually a lot of lords that can do that though. Even some generics. Any lord that gets a dragon mount and a lot of the treemen lords can do it (at least if you have magic behind them like Archaeon would). Then theres lords like Aranessa, Fey, Burke Black, who can reach 90 percent physical resist without sword of khaine (and I'm assuming lack of sword of khaine here because it is not impressive to beat a 20 stack with it).

And doesn't chaos have some banner for 20 percent ward save. Archaeon can only really solo stacks because he can abuse ward save with that, his items, and his base 10 percent physical resist.

If we ignore his casting (which we should cause you're talking about campaign where its kind of a waste of points, and hes no better at it than a sorcerer), his melee ability is the top of non monstrous lords. And I'd also say non chariot lords, cause Settra won't beat him in a duel on his chariot but he will kill like 5-6 infantry per second and might end up with 400 kills in a 10 minute battle, something Archaeon is incapable of without spells.

And then a lot of the lords who are not better combantants than him bring utility. Even just like queek is half costing stormvermin (although I wouldn't call Queek better). Tyrion kills single targets faster after campaign buffs and lowers the cost on early game core units. A huge number of lords have monstrous mounts and will therefore outkill him.

Besides, Archaeon can solo a 20 stack cause he's got spells, and he dies slow. Spells you just add a sorcerer for the same effect, and dying slow isn't that useful of a skill. If your entire army dies around you, its not really a good victory, and you'll still have to re-recruit to beat a good 20 stack or 2 armies. You're better off with a lord like Hellabron who also will die after the army, but she'll kill 3x as much stuff so her army probably won't die in the first place.

So while I don't think Archaeon is bad, (I think hes average as far as LLs go), I think I could easily make an argument as far as campaign goes, and even multiplayer if we use cost as the raw power a lord is intended to have, theres many lords who cost more just cause of monstrous mounts or being monsters.

[ColonoscoPete]

Originally posted by ✳Sindri Myr✳:

CA is Vamp biased. In Lore Archaon wipes his balls with something like vlad or nagash.

or maybe its just that the game has to actually be balanced

[zefyris]

Uh, while Archaon is on the super Op side of lord in the lore, let's not get carried away, shall we?
Saying him and Aenarion would be matched in combat (provided Aenarion was still alive, as he died 6,000 years before Archaon appeared lol) is ridiculous. Aenarion with the sword of Khaine (and his mount too...) would make minced meat of Archaon. A lot can be argued about who is stronger than who, sure, but if there's one character in the lore that is head and shoulder above everyone else, that's Aenarion. 6,000 years after his death, the consequences of his very existence are still shaking this world like crazy. The dude fought a daemon army and then 4 greater daemons at the same time when they were powered up massively by warp energies(so not comparable to today's greater daemons that are like fish out of water), and won, albeit barely.
Archaon is no match for Aenarion. The thing is, Aenarion is long dead, so that's not what would stop Archaon~.
Tyrion would probably be a good match though.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Rescue Whale:

Originally posted by ✳Sindri Myr✳:

CA is Vamp biased. In Lore Archaon wipes his balls with something like vlad or nagash.

or maybe its just that the game has to actually be balanced

But, he beats vlad anyways, and Nagash isn't in the game (plus he never fights Nagash and lore-wise Nagash is definitely stronger till the skaven blow his pyramid up at least).

He hasn't even gotten to the point where you have to talk about balance. That fight works like what he wants and hes complaining anyways.

[DecayWolf]

He's a beast.

[✳Sindri Myr✳]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by Rescue Whale:

or maybe its just that the game has to actually be balanced

But, he beats vlad anyways, and Nagash isn't in the game (plus he never fights Nagash and lore-wise Nagash is definitely stronger till the skaven blow his pyramid up at least).

He hasn't even gotten to the point where you have to talk about balance. That fight works like what he wants and hes complaining anyways.

lol im not complaining, i actauly think Archaon is pretty strong in the game. Take him on Dorghar and swords of Chaos - its not cheap but very effective against anything that is not skimishers.