How do humans manage to survive?

[Mr. Wiggles]

I mean, they are continuously under attack, and their enemies are huge, invincible monsters and daemons. Still they manage to survive, even the skaven plans and technology fail. Dont tell me that humans reproduce very quickly, because that is not true, not when you have huge orks popping out the ground like potatoes or millions of skaven and beastmen walking around.
I can find only one solution:
The enemies of Mankind, including armored chaos warriors or giant daemons are not that strong. They are more like p*ssies. Giant, ugly, but still p*ssies if normal humans kick them in the a*s every time.

[Wedor]

Humans are not exactly the very best at anything - true - But they are pretty damn solid in every single aspect. There is nothing they are really bad at either.
They heavily outnumber everyone except skaven (and maybe orcs idk), are smarter then everyone except elves and maybe dwarfs, have better tactics and discipline than anyone (maybe except elves), are solidly strong and magical gifted and so on and so forth.

[Chillum]

Originally posted by Chameon:

Originally posted by Mr.Wiggles:

I disagree on some points: technology advancement, under right conditions, can grow exponentially. Only humans, lore-wise, have these conditions: they're not as conservative as elves and dwarfs (because human lifespan is quite short, but this, in terms of social and paradigmas evolution, is a huge bonus. Once the oldies are dead lets welcome the newbies with new ideas).
Also a cohoperative society (tipically human) AND a modern state (the empire is still quite archaic, but it is very likely that its society keeps on evolving like technology) Skaven dont have, and will never have, neither of the aforementioned. So i expect the skaven technology to reach a plateau (already reached probably) and then stagnate. Chaos even worse, it is not the same as WH40k, it will remain a threat, but not a mortal one.
Hope you'll understand what i wrote

You are somewhat inaccurate in several points to what I referenced, but I will explain each of them.

Dwarfs are actually losing a lot of their conservativism currently, that is the current goal of the current high king, abandoning the more self-harming technological traditions and advancing, in direct opposition of the engineer guilds' whims. THis means that the things the Dwarfs have discovered millenia ago, things more advanced then gyrocopters, would begin hitting the surface, which would give Dwarfs a temporary leap past Empire once again, and then it's a question of creativity and experience. Dwarfs lack creativity, but compensate in spades in experience, and this could be applied to create things that require higher overall skill levels then humans could bring to bear.

Chaos, I'm more referencing fallen legions and stolen tech. Chaos' soldiers are not born out of teeth placed into the ground, and their tech likewise is formed from their abandonment. Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle all make promises which attract much attention. Furthermore, Chaos Magic advances with the whims of the dark gods moreso then the abilities of mortals, and so chaos engine corruption would likely not be terribly difficult. After all, the Cannon of Skulls mortar piece (wanna-be tank) already exists for Chaos.

Skaven actually are still canonically looking at other races' tech for good ideas and stealing it by the bucketload. They might have plateau'd out, but the fact is, it seems like Skryre is actively attempting to advance exponentially still. While as a race, I wouldn't expect Skaven to advance instantly to the end-goal, the fact is, Skryre probably -will- keep advancing for as long as humanity keeps advancing. For a point of reference, in the era known as the Time of Woes, roughly 4100 years prior to the time of this game, the Skaven invented, off of stolen Dwarf Technology, a warpstone laced Drilling device. They used this device to drill a geomantic node because 'why not?' This messed up a Lizardmen spell to slightly shift and correct the position of the tectonic plates to match the directions of the Old Ones, which in turn caused the collapse of a range of mountains. The Lizardmen and Skaven are both likely to this day unaware of the others' involvement.

Elves, yeah, no, I'm not disputing technological advancement, I was referring to social advancement. As in, actually using humans more directly, as vassals/citizen soldiers to supplement their own forces. I do not believe that the way the HIgh Elves are currently waging war is sustainable.

As for whether humans would expand exponentially....well.....it's plausible. It's possible they outstep everyone to the point they do actually win, barring, again, I would argue Skaven. Unless they sincerely focus on the complete eradication of Skaven, Skaven are keeping up with them, and Skaven WILL eventually blow up the planet failing to realize the precise consequences of their own technology, leading ot the extinction of all life. And the longer humanity waits, the harder it becomes to prevent that precise end result.

But Skaven dont exist good sir!

[Zoie Shales]

Originally posted by Chillum:

But Skaven dont exist good sir!

We don't exist, yes-yes.

[Hurricane]

Cant believe he quoted that wall of text to say that... jesus joseph and mary

[Chameon]

Originally posted by Antonio:

Skaven has only had skirmishes with the empire? With plagues concocted from Clan Pestilense and assassins from Clan Eshin they had the empire on their knees in 1111 IC. As far that only major cities like Nuln, Altdorf and Averheim stayed safe...ish, and they built slaving operations in the Empire countrysides. Only reason they lost that war was that the same plague they released on the Empire started to affect the Skaven as well.

By Skaven standards, yes. That is a Skirmish. Only two major clans got involved in it. The current size of the Army of the United States of America is 460000, it has lowered somewhat from previously. For Skaven, that total force would be, fractionally equivalent, to roughly 160000 Armed Men. That is not 'War', that is a probing force at best. While you are correct that there are more dramatic terminologies for that, that's just how ludicrous Skaven birthing rates and quantities actually are. And yes, they did still dwarf every other force in terms of both number and technology. Everyone treats Skaven as a joke faction, but they actually are strictly speaking the most horrifying faction, the sole thing stopping them from breaking EVERYTHING is how much time they spend breaking themselves.

ALso you forgot to mention that Sylvania got involved in ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with them. That's where Van Hel's Danse comes from, after all.

Edit: Corrected Eroneous numerology.

[Chameon]

Originally posted by Mr.Wiggles:

Chameon i was taking a more rational approach and set aside the derpy lore for a moment, providing logical explanations, based on real historical facts. You cant dismiss what i said just saying "the lore" because the warhammer lore is full of bs

Except I didn't ignore what you said just saying 'the lore', I pointed out factual information from the setting, as History is actually full of BS as well. I brought up one reason why Humans haven't fallen yet and connected it directly to the historical fact of why Rome ever (not a typo) became an Empire. Extermination campaigns, prior to the invention of modern arms, are EXCEEDINGLY difficult to actually pull off of a civilization scale.

Take a minute and take a step back and look at where History breaks the mold of itself. Skaven actually -are- stealing tech constantly, this is a lore thing, and yet they're not advancing. They don't advance terribly far PAST other races, they just add warpstone to it and step to the next level. Dwarfs do, by the settings' information and the constants provided, have engineering knacks that humans do not, including the ability to work runes, thus adding magic to the capacities of their vehicles, and the current king is actually trying to bring Dwarfs back to their golden age in what are all historically correct ways.

If you're going to ask a question about a fantasy setting, and then suggest one ignores the information of the setting, then, I could equally well choose to answer that with wild statements or irrational impossibilities. Humans die out. The ending finally happens for the Empire, the Elector counts all bicker too much, and a civil war begins. The Empire actually does have many of the hallmarks of an Empire that, when presented with a golden age, would go into a civil war that would break itself.

However, the lore of the setting informs us of why this wouldn't actually occur, there are literally wizards controlling and manipulating the strings of how this stuff works from behind the scenes. I am trying to take what lore I know to the logical conclusions. And, barring the elimination of the Skaven, they would eventually nuke the planet wiping out all life without exception, including themselves. Even in a setting where humans win, the Skaven would inevitably win unless the Skaven are wiped out. The less it becomes about setting troops on the battlefield and merely having the restraint to not push the big red button and wipe out all life, the more the world as a whole loses when Skaven are on the map.

[Froz7y]

GUNPOWDAH,MAGIC,SCIENCE AND REAL MEN!

[SoulbreakerDHCC]

To quote my state troopers "Remember lads, discipline is key"

[AlbaHIbernia]

Sigmar, easy next question.

It's the same as 40K the Imperium is surrounded on all fronts and facing vastly superior species.

All that keeps them alive is their faith and firepower. Steam Tanks being a key example. They're not well represented in game but there's only supposed to be 12 in existance. Magic as well. The Empire is no pushover in the magic front. Not as superior as some races but they're definately mid tier in the world for magical properties.

[Treyen]

plot armor

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by AlbaHIbernia:

Sigmar, easy next question.

It's the same as 40K the Imperium is surrounded on all fronts and facing vastly superior species.

All that keeps them alive is their faith and firepower. Steam Tanks being a key example. They're not well represented in game but there's only supposed to be 12 in existance. Magic as well. The Empire is no pushover in the magic front. Not as superior as some races but they're definately mid tier in the world for magical properties.

What???? 40k humans have titans and space marines.... they are the alphas of the galaxy... they melt all other races. They just die a lot too.

[AlbaHIbernia]

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Originally posted by AlbaHIbernia:

Sigmar, easy next question.

It's the same as 40K the Imperium is surrounded on all fronts and facing vastly superior species.

All that keeps them alive is their faith and firepower. Steam Tanks being a key example. They're not well represented in game but there's only supposed to be 12 in existance. Magic as well. The Empire is no pushover in the magic front. Not as superior as some races but they're definately mid tier in the world for magical properties.

What???? 40k humans have titans and space marines.... they are the alphas of the galaxy... they melt all other races. They just die a lot too.

In Lore 1 Eldar/Necron is supposed to be equivalent of a Space Marine tho. They seem very cool and powerful when reading their POV. That's why i don't think it's that big a stretch to compare the Imperium to the Empire.

Many underestimate the power of Sigmar. Sigmar can allow those pesky Empire priests near Space Marine level feats.

[Hurricane]

Lol eldar are nothing on space marines.... chaos is the main threat and guess what they are corrupted space marines!!!

If the horus heresy didnt happen the imperium would be unstoppable.

The empire have nothing at all on the 40k humans...

[Chameon]

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Lol eldar are nothing on space marines.... chaos is the main threat and guess what they are corrupted space marines!!!

If the horus heresy didnt happen the imperium would be unstoppable.

The empire have nothing at all on the 40k humans...

If the Horus Heresy didn't happen. Hm. There's a few translations on that.

The warp wouldn't just 'go away' in all likelihood. It would continue to exist, but instead new emotions, and not necessarily positive ones, would become the forefront and power source of this new warp predator. And the entirety of the Imperium could become the font of this new aberration and horror. Instead of getting less then 50%, the entire Imperium, and every Space Marine, would become suffering worshippers of this chaos god of progress.

Or alternatively, consider the detail that the Emperor is both immortal and fallible by the lore, in that scenario. He nuked several of his own planets and had to accept areas where people were acting directly against his will, or fell for Warp Trickeries from the Chaos Gods just the same as other individuals. If you don't presume the Horus Heresy was actually a planned action, that he was actually trying to cause it, a lot of his actions don't exactly paint him as a competent leader, and an incompetent leader can cause many, many problems. Rapidly leading to instability or self-destructive tendencies, or, in otherwords, if not Horus, then Magnus, if not Magnus, then Guilliman, if not Guilliman, maybe Perturabo.

Alternatively, you might notice that the Adeptus Mechanicus of Mars were never properly curbed, and were both a religion, and a wildly impractical way of viewing most tech. This tended to lead to them being horribly incompetent at providing advancements that weren't small efficiency boosts, and even those tended to take hundreds, if not thousands of years to get out. And since Emps didn't clean them out immediately, they had already taken root in many of his colonies, which in turn creates the issue that it would be inconvenient to root them out.

Then there's the note that the Tyranids might have actually corrupted the Emperor in the event that he was still alive. He's a giant psionic beacon of 'Come get me', and while he might be ready for daemons, tyranids are a new threat, and the Emperor himself is a gestalt of a hundred, a few million coming knocking might not be something he's mentally prepared for.

Overall, would the Imperium be in a better place if the Heresy didn't happen? Eh, probably. On the flip side, however, could it be a far worse place? Absolutely, there's a million universes in which the Horus Heresy not happening results in either the Emperor losing all traction, going insane, spawning a new chaos god that wipes out the entire Imperium in a redo of the Eldar's birthing of Slaanesh, or any of a number of other things.

That having been said, Chaos being the main threat is....debatable. The main threat to the Imperium of 40k is very likely the Imperium of 40k. Nuking loyalist worlds to cleanse a single traitor, burning allies at the stake to 'improve' loyalty, beating your own troops to improve morale, wasting machines that you can no longer build as battering rams in wanton displays of disregard for the capacities of allied forces or the utility of the machine in general... Every single one of these coins adds up to a fortune of debt. This isn't even getting started on the corruption of the Ecclesiarchy and their misuse of Sororitas Adeptas or the inherent psychological weaknesses of the Adeptus Astartes that leave them in a position where if they are against an opponent who understands them they are in true peril.

[Chillum]

Originally posted by Chillum:

Originally posted by Chameon:

You are somewhat inaccurate in several points to what I referenced, but I will explain each of them.

Dwarfs are actually losing a lot of their conservativism currently, that is the current goal of the current high king, abandoning the more self-harming technological traditions and advancing, in direct opposition of the engineer guilds' whims. THis means that the things the Dwarfs have discovered millenia ago, things more advanced then gyrocopters, would begin hitting the surface, which would give Dwarfs a temporary leap past Empire once again, and then it's a question of creativity and experience. Dwarfs lack creativity, but compensate in spades in experience, and this could be applied to create things that require higher overall skill levels then humans could bring to bear.

Chaos, I'm more referencing fallen legions and stolen tech. Chaos' soldiers are not born out of teeth placed into the ground, and their tech likewise is formed from their abandonment. Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle all make promises which attract much attention. Furthermore, Chaos Magic advances with the whims of the dark gods moreso then the abilities of mortals, and so chaos engine corruption would likely not be terribly difficult. After all, the Cannon of Skulls mortar piece (wanna-be tank) already exists for Chaos.

Skaven actually are still canonically looking at other races' tech for good ideas and stealing it by the bucketload. They might have plateau'd out, but the fact is, it seems like Skryre is actively attempting to advance exponentially still. While as a race, I wouldn't expect Skaven to advance instantly to the end-goal, the fact is, Skryre probably -will- keep advancing for as long as humanity keeps advancing. For a point of reference, in the era known as the Time of Woes, roughly 4100 years prior to the time of this game, the Skaven invented, off of stolen Dwarf Technology, a warpstone laced Drilling device. They used this device to drill a geomantic node because 'why not?' This messed up a Lizardmen spell to slightly shift and correct the position of the tectonic plates to match the directions of the Old Ones, which in turn caused the collapse of a range of mountains. The Lizardmen and Skaven are both likely to this day unaware of the others' involvement.

Elves, yeah, no, I'm not disputing technological advancement, I was referring to social advancement. As in, actually using humans more directly, as vassals/citizen soldiers to supplement their own forces. I do not believe that the way the HIgh Elves are currently waging war is sustainable.

As for whether humans would expand exponentially....well.....it's plausible. It's possible they outstep everyone to the point they do actually win, barring, again, I would argue Skaven. Unless they sincerely focus on the complete eradication of Skaven, Skaven are keeping up with them, and Skaven WILL eventually blow up the planet failing to realize the precise consequences of their own technology, leading ot the extinction of all life. And the longer humanity waits, the harder it becomes to prevent that precise end result.

But Skaven dont exist good sir!

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Cant believe he quoted that wall of text to say that... jesus joseph and mary

That was the point sir!