Free skeletons for Vampires? Nice joke CA!

[Alinsar]

Holly ♥♥♥♥, thats not funny at all. Even -50% upkeep for skeletons will be OP and we have - 100%! Now you can faceroll legendary campaign, with that free skeleton doom armies.

[hammerinn]

引用自 DecayWolf：

引用自 hammerinn：

I said turn 30 as a guess to when the technology unlocks. It is actually turn 15. Turn 15 you can start building 5 entire stack of skeles for 400 upkeep each. A mid-tier stack is roughky 4000 for one stack. At least read the thread.

Each cannon fodder army will increase overall upkeep by 15%.
5 stacks total equals 70% due the 10% flat.
While you've 1 alright army costing 70% more and 4 cannon fodder armies for support, which not only will dictate how you'll be abled to expand/defend your frontiers, but also when engaged in combat will result in massive loses which will require to to be re recruited/raised, leading not only to turns wasting but also money wasting. The most cost efficient unit from VC's army are the grave guards, period. each army grave guards mainly are self suffient to expand on their own, therefore 2 armies equals 2 fronts, without the requeriment of extra armies to increase the overall upkeep. Also you won't getting units wiped, therefore no money spent on raise of death nor turns wasted recruiting.

Now let's assume you've 2 armies with mostly grave guards, instead of paying 25% extra upkeep, you'll be paying 25%+15*N of cannon fodder armies, say you have an extra 2 so 1 for each, you'll be paying 55% upkeep instead, for something really unecessary to start with.
It's only extra cost.
What this update brings however is, it makes skeletons/zombies more viable on mid game armies, since I tend to remove them completely very early game, infact as early as possible with raise of dead.
Second Skeleton spearmans now won't be completely useless.
Third they fit the theme and flavor for the faction.

2 armies on 30 turns sounds like you're a beginner. This number is far far far far off, and I'm saying on general terms to any faction whatsoever. Since we're talking about free upkeep armies, 10 armies on turn 30 would more or less an argument ,but then, good luck keeping them alive.
Also as I've said before, what's your point here? Are you saying that the AI is hard, and without this advantage he cannot be defeated? Are you saying no other faction can thrive? Bunch of nonsense.

I posted the actual match above.
2 mid-tier stacks =1 mid-tier and FIVE stacks of skeles.
In every way the five stacks are way more powerful. I am not going to reiterate it all. If you can't read or imagibe it well.......
Also something noone has mentioned is that these stacks are as far as I know the only army in existence that can raid for significantly more than the army costs to upkeep.

[Cacomistle]

引用自 hammerinn：

引用自 DecayWolf：

Each cannon fodder army will increase overall upkeep by 15%.
5 stacks total equals 70% due the 10% flat.
While you've 1 alright army costing 70% more and 4 cannon fodder armies for support, which not only will dictate how you'll be abled to expand/defend your frontiers, but also when engaged in combat will result in massive loses which will require to to be re recruited/raised, leading not only to turns wasting but also money wasting. The most cost efficient unit from VC's army are the grave guards, period. each army grave guards mainly are self suffient to expand on their own, therefore 2 armies equals 2 fronts, without the requeriment of extra armies to increase the overall upkeep. Also you won't getting units wiped, therefore no money spent on raise of death nor turns wasted recruiting.

Now let's assume you've 2 armies with mostly grave guards, instead of paying 25% extra upkeep, you'll be paying 25%+15*N of cannon fodder armies, say you have an extra 2 so 1 for each, you'll be paying 55% upkeep instead, for something really unecessary to start with.
It's only extra cost.
What this update brings however is, it makes skeletons/zombies more viable on mid game armies, since I tend to remove them completely very early game, infact as early as possible with raise of dead.
Second Skeleton spearmans now won't be completely useless.
Third they fit the theme and flavor for the faction.

2 armies on 30 turns sounds like you're a beginner. This number is far far far far off, and I'm saying on general terms to any faction whatsoever. Since we're talking about free upkeep armies, 10 armies on turn 30 would more or less an argument ,but then, good luck keeping them alive.
Also as I've said before, what's your point here? Are you saying that the AI is hard, and without this advantage he cannot be defeated? Are you saying no other faction can thrive? Bunch of nonsense.

I posted the actual match above.
2 mid-tier stacks =1 mid-tier and FIVE stacks of skeles.
In every way the five stacks are way more powerful. I am not going to reiterate it all. If you can't read or imagibe it well.......
Also something noone has mentioned is that these stacks are as far as I know the only army in existence that can raid for significantly more than the army costs to upkeep.

I don't think they can raid for significantly more than their cost. If you have 1 lord with like 3000 upkeep, the 15 percent upkeep is gonna be 450, then like 150 at cheapest for a necromancer lord. I've pretty rarely gotten much over 600 from raiding except as norsca and greenskins, and realistically the 3000 is probably a pretty large underestimate on your base upkeep.

Although 2 skeleton armies can take out any city without an extra garrison, and probably minor settlements with a better garrison if you play the siege battle right. So you might pay for them with sacking.

[RED /(Weber)\]

引用自 Alinsar：

引用自 TVMAN：

What legendary campaign are you playing where skeletons do anything but die? Are you playing with an 'invincible skeletons' mod or something? Because a ton of trash is still trash.

You're only pretending to be stupid, right? You can have 1 or 2 good armies and tons of trash to assist. Just try this by yourself.

Skeleton armies as an assist? Not even, TVMAN's right, skeleton armies do little more than topple over post early game.

[Shadowskyt]

I just got into Altdorf using mostly skelly's and zombies as the Barrow Legion. The entire north Bretonnia is mine, with exception of Mousillon.

Got around 6 armies running around, still have 5-6k income.

Pretty strong, though I'm starting to feel a strain as they're starting to have trouble taking down other basic units. Gues it's time to upgrade.

[Alinsar]

引用自 Shadowskyt：

I just got into Altdorf using mostly skelly's and zombies as the Barrow Legion. The entire north Bretonnia is mine, with exception of Mousillon.

Got around 6 armies running around, still have 5-6k income.

Pretty strong, though I'm starting to feel a strain as they're starting to have trouble taking down other basic units. Gues it's time to upgrade.

And you call this just "Pretty strong"? :D

[hammerinn]

引用自 Shadowskyt：

I just got into Altdorf using mostly skelly's and zombies as the Barrow Legion. The entire north Bretonnia is mine, with exception of Mousillon.

Got around 6 armies running around, still have 5-6k income.

Pretty strong, though I'm starting to feel a strain as they're starting to have trouble taking down other basic units. Gues it's time to upgrade.

With 6 armies what is your total army upkeep?

[Shadowskyt]

引用自 hammerinn：

引用自 Shadowskyt：

I just got into Altdorf using mostly skelly's and zombies as the Barrow Legion. The entire north Bretonnia is mine, with exception of Mousillon.

Got around 6 armies running around, still have 5-6k income.

Pretty strong, though I'm starting to feel a strain as they're starting to have trouble taking down other basic units. Gues it's time to upgrade.

With 6 armies what is your total army upkeep?

Done playing for today. If I remember, I'll check and post back here.

[Cacomistle]

So for some actual math lets say are at the point in the game where you would have 2 armies of mid tier units. You can get free skeleton armies cheaper than this, but then you're sacrificing stuff like the growth and city income tech, so it has an opportunity cost I don't feel like calculating.

Having 2 skeleton armies following your main armies means you go from 125 percent upkeep to 155 on legendary. Thats about a 25 percent upkeep increase.

What this means is instead of a single army with 20 decent units, you'll have 15 decent units and 25 trash units. Outside of perhaps a battle with all the troops (where only 40 are on the field so skeletons can be a liability), this is stronger.

However, I don't think its stronger by enough to break the game. At least not when compared to all the other strong things. Like honestly a high elf archer+seaguard army as used by a player would probably beat the 2 vampire stacks as used by a player cause their buffs are so ridiculous. And would definitely win the 2v4.

[Shadowskyt]

I also had a lot of close ancounters in which I had to leave open my defenses for the AI to attack them.

Damn auto-resolve favored my chanced at around a measly 5% muliple times.

Yet with some careful planning and a lot of microing my hounds and fellbats, I managed to beat off several attacks against my 'undefended' settlements. Helmgart in particular beat off three attacks by itself, which I'm very proud off.

Quite funny to see my hounds rack up to around 200 kills, just by baiting and striking archers when they're distracted.

Most of my wins this way was through sheer fear though. Skeletons can't beat even the basic Empire troups unless they're two against one in a flanking position. Altdorf required 3-4 entire armies to beat, though the sack of 19000k was worth it. I did use Raise Death and Merge Units a lot.

[lefty1117]

sounds to me like the OP never read The Return of Nagash

[DecayWolf]

引用自 Alinsar：

引用自 DecayWolf：

2 armies on 30 turns sounds like you're a beginner. This number is far far far far off, and I'm saying on general terms to any faction whatsoever

And here is the professional opinion... You can easily maintain 2-3 full armies (or even more coz its "far far far far off") on turn 30 by any faction on legendary?
I show this again: https://youtu.be/6o4Ob9vrN7o?t=10024
Elich playing legendary VC campaign (the Barrow Legion). Turn 31 - 3 full armies (silver shevrons), 2357 income (so he can have even more armies).
Maybe you are so “pro” that you can achieve the same result playing for Carcassonne\Dwarfs\Orks?

Haven't played neither Carcassone, Dwarfs nor Orks.
Question, would the Orks spammed army count as the total? If it would, them would be pretty easy for them. For what I gather Dwarfs starts with a lot gold mines and expensive tranding resources, I'd say for them shouldn't be hard either. Bretonnia can have the pesants army right? Though they seem to be rather... Weak, so I'd say doesn't worth it a army full of them.

But with a good start, decent planning, some luck, I can have 3 armies with Druchii, Asur and VC.
Also as WoC due sacking, don't remember if I had enough pop growth by then though.
Some factors to keep in account are, rushing to upkeep reduction on the skill tree, tecnology to either increase income or decrease upkeep, main focus on income generation on buildings, not units or more expensive units.

As long we re not talking about elite units on the 3 armies, then I suppose it's possible to any faction.

[DecayWolf]

引用自 hammerinn：

引用自 DecayWolf：

Each cannon fodder army will increase overall upkeep by 15%.
5 stacks total equals 70% due the 10% flat.
While you've 1 alright army costing 70% more and 4 cannon fodder armies for support, which not only will dictate how you'll be abled to expand/defend your frontiers, but also when engaged in combat will result in massive loses which will require to to be re recruited/raised, leading not only to turns wasting but also money wasting. The most cost efficient unit from VC's army are the grave guards, period. each army grave guards mainly are self suffient to expand on their own, therefore 2 armies equals 2 fronts, without the requeriment of extra armies to increase the overall upkeep. Also you won't getting units wiped, therefore no money spent on raise of death nor turns wasted recruiting.

Now let's assume you've 2 armies with mostly grave guards, instead of paying 25% extra upkeep, you'll be paying 25%+15*N of cannon fodder armies, say you have an extra 2 so 1 for each, you'll be paying 55% upkeep instead, for something really unecessary to start with.
It's only extra cost.
What this update brings however is, it makes skeletons/zombies more viable on mid game armies, since I tend to remove them completely very early game, infact as early as possible with raise of dead.
Second Skeleton spearmans now won't be completely useless.
Third they fit the theme and flavor for the faction.

2 armies on 30 turns sounds like you're a beginner. This number is far far far far off, and I'm saying on general terms to any faction whatsoever. Since we're talking about free upkeep armies, 10 armies on turn 30 would more or less an argument ,but then, good luck keeping them alive.
Also as I've said before, what's your point here? Are you saying that the AI is hard, and without this advantage he cannot be defeated? Are you saying no other faction can thrive? Bunch of nonsense.

I posted the actual match above.
2 mid-tier stacks =1 mid-tier and FIVE stacks of skeles.
In every way the five stacks are way more powerful. I am not going to reiterate it all. If you can't read or imagibe it well.......
Also something noone has mentioned is that these stacks are as far as I know the only army in existence that can raid for significantly more than the army costs to upkeep.

There's a lot time since I played WoC, but IIRC every single general can have 90% upkeep reduction. Sigvald could've I guess it was up to 95%? Archaon can have 101% reduction.
Except from Archaon which would require to have chaos warriors instead of choosen, any other general could achieve 90% with a army full of choosens.
Beastman can have rituals which will drastically regenerate their full army strength, always walk on ambush stance and they can spam armies, while also having a considerable upkeep reduction.
I don't remember the numbers from my top of my head, but Asur can have a very impressive upkeep reduction as well, due the general upkeep reduction traits + skill tree.
VCoast Admirals can have from -76% upkeep to up to -81%. Luthor can even add an extra 15% if he feel like, going up to 96%.

The above can be with any unit, the most elites.
So, how exactly a bunch or worthless zombies for free upkeep is breaking the game? They aren't not even free to recruit!
Also you haven't answered yet, do you believe no faction can thrive and win the game without this new mechanic? Do you believe the AI is too hard?
Why do you claim it's unbalanced, when other factions can have a even more impressive result and this update was never ever been needed anyways.

Also since you keep ignoring the cold logic such as you've to re recruit/raise the lost units, also keep in mind the amount of turns that you've spent researching this tec, which could've been used to income/city growth instead, which would result into making more money, thus being abled to sustain more armies with quality units.

Also good luck to sustain a decent army, aided by an extra 5 cannon fodder with the for 'only' extra 85% upkeep. Besides the fact that you won't be abled to raise another quality army at all, any time soon, meaning expansion compromise and borders defense risk.
But also good luck keeping your armies in shape since you're already investing pretty much all your resources on a army, meant to die and be replenished.

[anolisjd1990]

引用自 Chosokabe：

nvm i see it, yeah i love this change makes sense. Skeletons suck , and it will let vampires have epic big armies. I hope more vampires units become free.

You sure dont like balance and revel in chaos... do you?