Complaint about skaven rituals.

[Kyso4ek]

Ok so Eshin rituals are pretty neat.

For other clans: the first two which give some small amount of food and increase agent % chance + increase loyalty are kind of OK. Still the + loyalty rolls could be improved.

The pestilent scheme effect is quite bad with everyone except clan Pestilense. % chance is way too low. Even with Pestilens its only usable early in the game because the priest needs to walk and usually gets wounded on its way.

Doom engineer is only useful in the first 20 turns because it allows you to establish an undercity before you have access to the Construction Cavern and the engineers. The earthquake property is extremely weak because it is the same as Plague priest's Damage walls action and the special undercity building is useless. I always demolish it because you need food, money and %chance to spread undercities but not 5% research rate that is wasted onl any research that is not at least 20 turns long(btw there is no such researchs in skaven tech tree).

The pestilent and doom rituals should be replacved with something useful. 13th scheme needs a + % loyalty chance increase.

[Zane87]

I like the doom ritual.
It also provides that region with a special lab undercity building which increases warlock engineer capacity. Sth I value very much as skaven, they are best-best.

[Kyso4ek]

Originally posted by Zane87:

I like the doom ritual.
It also provides that region with a special lab undercity building which increases warlock engineer capacity. Sth I value very much as skaven, they are best-best.

Too bad you only need maybe 1-2 engineers to walk around the map and plant undercities only.

Altdorf, Marienburg, Itza, castle Drakenhof what else. And that is all why you need an engineer. Does not even matter what level.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Kyso4ek:

Originally posted by Zane87:

I like the doom ritual.
It also provides that region with a special lab undercity building which increases warlock engineer capacity. Sth I value very much as skaven, they are best-best.

Too bad you only need maybe 1-2 engineers to walk around the map and plant undercities only.

Altdorf, Marienburg, Itza, castle Drakenhof what else. And that is all why you need an engineer. Does not even matter what level.

Uhm, I want one in every single of my armies, sometimes more than one.
Not only do they increase your armies movement speed, which is one of the best things to have.
They also boost missile and artillery troops, sth which is also one of the best things to have.

Are you really just using those wonderful heroes for undercities? Oo

[Kyso4ek]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Originally posted by Kyso4ek:

Too bad you only need maybe 1-2 engineers to walk around the map and plant undercities only.

Altdorf, Marienburg, Itza, castle Drakenhof what else. And that is all why you need an engineer. Does not even matter what level.

Uhm, I want one in every single of my armies, sometimes more than one.
Not only do they increase your armies movement speed, which is one of the best things to have.
They also boost missile and artillery troops, sth which is also one of the best things to have.

Are you really just using those wonderful heroes for undercities? Oo

I have a mod that linits use of heroes because i hate the micro control.
I think that there are other ways to increase their capacity like with retinue. This building and ritual only brings roleplay element to the game.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Kyso4ek:

Originally posted by Zane87:

Uhm, I want one in every single of my armies, sometimes more than one.
Not only do they increase your armies movement speed, which is one of the best things to have.
They also boost missile and artillery troops, sth which is also one of the best things to have.

Are you really just using those wonderful heroes for undercities? Oo

I have a mod that linits use of heroes because i hate the micro control.
I think that there are other ways to increase their capacity like with retinue. This building and ritual only brings roleplay element to the game.

Ahh okay. So you use a mod that hampers the viability of those heroes, and therefore the rite that gives significant additional capacity to said heroes should be changed in vanilla?

Why don't you just use or make a mod then that changes that as well -.-'

[Kyso4ek]

Dude this is a 200 upkeep hero that only marginally increases your ammo and reload and then you have to weaken your army for that. The ritual sucks be it unmodded or modded. Extremely one dimentional and you can do better things with your undercities rather than focus on playing around heroes which arent even that great.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Kyso4ek:

Dude this is a 200 upkeep hero that only marginally increases your ammo and reload and then you have to weaken your army for that. The ritual sucks be it unmodded or modded. Extremely one dimentional and you can do better things with your undercities rather than focus on playing around heroes which arent even that great.

It increases ammo, reload speed, range and speed.
It stacks with others of the same heroes.

There were Warp lightning doomstacks with several of those heroes that would make them shoot extremely fast, and cover a lot more than their already huge range would normally cover.

And they increase movement by 20%, which is very significant, especially with a faction that can use ambush attack and underground.
You can only build the lab in those special rite created undercities. And I tend to have hundred of undercities, as I send raiding parties instead of agents usually. Food, gold and undercities, and without a 5 or 10 turn time limit.

Dude, you are using a mod that completely changes the vanilla balancing and therefore want vanilla experience for everyone else to be changed. Talking about one-dimensional here

[Kyso4ek]

Yes i played unmodded skaven and i still deleted every single engineer laboratory because i consider it totally useless and want it changed. Quit your stupid personal attacks. Maybe you dont realize it but people playing with mods are just as good as people playing without.

By the way infinite heroes is a clear oversight in the game because it increases the microcontrol and is BAD game design.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by Kyso4ek:

Yes i played unmodded skaven and i still deleted every single engineer laboratory because i consider it totally useless and want it changed. Quit your stupid personal attacks. Maybe you dont realize it but people playing with mods are just as good as people playing without?

Wait, you started those personal attacks. Not me.

I just then reacted.

And you value them worthless, but that is just, you know, totally your opinion mate.
I have another one and that is why we are arguing. Changing base game is not about you.

Also not about me, it is about the arguments. Your argument presented is that the lab is useless and my argument is, no the engineers are great heroes for all of the above mentioned reasons.

That's called a debate, mate.

Edit:
And about your edit: Also according to you. Others actually enjoy hoarding heroes and using them efficiently.
It is the same argument as others claiming Cavalry is bad because they are too micro intensive. No, they are not bad if you micro them correctly. If you don't want to do that, don't use them. But don't state they are useless cause you are not willing to use them correctly...

[Kyso4ek]

Originally posted by Bruce Magician:

I agree that mors and rictus should get their own rite instead of the plague monk.

but rite of DOOOOM is awesome with clan skyre. That unique building is a massive boon.

Skryre also gets something else instead of pestilent scheme.
I can barely see the merit of doom scheme but only if you for some reason play the ranged spam skaven army. I know there is some sort of a dogma that all skaven can do is just that but that is wrong you can have 0 ranged units in your army and instead use death runners, stormvermin, the doomwheels, plague furnaces. In which case the doom ritual is just a total waste of time. Only good for the first underempire expedition because you can do the rite before you got the construction cavern.

[lPaladinl]

Originally posted by Kyso4ek:

Dude this is a 200 upkeep hero that only marginally increases your ammo and reload and then you have to weaken your army for that. The ritual sucks be it unmodded or modded. Extremely one dimentional and you can do better things with your undercities rather than focus on playing around heroes which arent even that great.

I don't know how you can be any more wrong.

That "marginal" increase is absolutely balls-to-the-wall insane with Ratling Gunners and is also good for Jezzails if you get them in close enough.

They also keep your artillery stocked.

[RCMidas]

Essentially, your complaint is that there's a ritual which does not support your particular playstyle. This thing exists and is of no use to you so you don't like it. Sigmar preserve us.

[Zane87]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Essentially, your complaint is that there's a ritual which does not support your particular playstyle. This thing exists and is of no use to you so you don't like it. Sigmar preserve us.

And the fun thing is, this personal playstyle heavily is influenced on a mod that nerfs the very same warlock engineers that make the vanilla Rite so fantastic to get...

[RCMidas]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Essentially, your complaint is that there's a ritual which does not support your particular playstyle. This thing exists and is of no use to you so you don't like it. Sigmar preserve us.

And the fun thing is, this personal playstyle heavily is influenced on a mod that nerfs the very same warlock engineers that make the vanilla Rite so fantastic to get...

...by Ulric, I missed that statement. He's nerfing the very strategy he is decrying and whining about? Ikit, please just shoot me.