Assassinating fleets

[Fendelphi]

So I am playing as Anar(Nagarythe) and I was tracking down an assassination target. I finally caught up to it, but it is a fleet(as in "roaming fleet"/rogue army), making it impossible to assassinate as long as it does not touch ground.

Is this a bug or an oversight?

[Toby Larone]

Probably an oversight, since those armies are meant to stay at sea all the time they should have excluded them from that list.

[Fendelphi]

That is kind of debilitating, since those assassinations grants substantial boosts of income in the early game, which is otherwise really slow(because surrounded by enemies, dealing with unrest and corruption, etc.).

I will still play it through, because I doubt they will hotfix it anytime soon anyway.

[Zero]

You know you can just kill their ass in a battle, right?

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Zero:

You know you can just kill their ass in a battle, right?

No way of doing that on turn 15 across the seas.
Who would defend my lands against Morathi, 2 dark elf sub-factions, the Skeggi and Rictus, if I go chasing a nearly full stack army across the seas with Alith Anar?

[Zane87]

Well the quests are random and give a huge amount of influence plus quite some cash.

Some are easy to do but usually you can only fulfill one or two in 20 turns.

[Chthonic Guardian]

Originally posted by Zero:

You know you can just kill their ass in a battle, right?

If it is an assasination mission then it is aborted when the target dies in battle and you won't get the reward. That is my experience anyway.

I would think OP's dilmna would be by design and not a bug. It would be next to impossible to get on an enemy ship at sea undetected, and then make your way to find the target with an entire enemy army on board in confined space, and then escape.
I guess they could give you a 1% chance or something.

[lump0815]

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

Originally posted by Zero:

You know you can just kill their ass in a battle, right?

If it is an assasination mission then it is aborted when the target dies in battle and you won't get the reward. That is my experience anyway.
....

That's just semi-correct. It depends on "who" killed the target in battle; if the player did, it counts as "mission accomplished", if it was an AI-faction, it's "mission aborted".

[Zane87]

Originally posted by lump0815:

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

If it is an assasination mission then it is aborted when the target dies in battle and you won't get the reward. That is my experience anyway.
....

That's just semi-correct. It depends on "who" killed the target in battle; if the player did, it counts as "mission accomplished", if it was an AI-faction, it's "mission aborted".

That.

Cause when you assassinate him, it doesn't matter how. (Though it does matter that it was your faction)

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Well the quests are random and give a huge amount of influence plus quite some cash.

Some are easy to do but usually you can only fulfill one or two in 20 turns.

Of the 3 targets I had, 1 was a high elf, who got killed before I could reach him. The second closest is this fleet leader(so not going to happen) and the last is a beastmen leader, far, far away(no chance of getting there on 20 turns).

Having a dedicated army chasing them depends on luck(that they spawn close, not hindered by diplomatic relations, or intercepted by hostiles on the way) and economy(a full army basically cost more than what the reward gives you).

If I cant have a semi-decent chance of using the faction special mechanic as intended, then it needs to be revised.
Allowing ship assassinations for the special hero would be a start.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

Originally posted by Zero:

You know you can just kill their ass in a battle, right?

If it is an assasination mission then it is aborted when the target dies in battle and you won't get the reward. That is my experience anyway.

I would think OP's dilmna would be by design and not a bug. It would be next to impossible to get on an enemy ship at sea undetected, and then make your way to find the target with an entire enemy army on board in confined space, and then escape.
I guess they could give you a 1% chance or something.

Several pieces of lore tell stories of ship assassinations.
A special hero, whos only purpose is assassination(2000 gold for 1 assassination, with a cooldown between uses), should be able to do so.

Just buying a lord+19 models for an army to go chasing targets cost more than the reward you get. And then you have to consider the upkeep costs.

[Zane87]

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against agent actions against ships, and while we are at it, a compete revisal of the sea mechanics.

With ambushes for the pirates, a better replenishment option and that.


But still, in maybe 10*3 or more assassination targets I had, I never had a roaming fleet target. I think you just have been unlucky, which is part of the game.

And 20 turns later the hunt starts anew, which you can use to send out your assassins in all directions to be prepared for anything when it starts again.


That's how I did it late game. All leftover assassins that couldn't reach the targets in time are send (staying in the sea so they could not be killed themselve) to different far away parts.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against agent actions against ships, and while we are at it, a compete revisal of the sea mechanics.

With ambushes for the pirates, a better replenishment option and that.


But still, in maybe 10*3 or more assassination targets I had, I never had a roaming fleet target. I think you just have been unlucky, which is part of the game.

And 20 turns later the hunt starts anew, which you can use to send out your assassins in all directions to be prepared for anything when it starts again.


That's how I did it late game. All leftover assassins that couldn't reach the targets in time are send (staying in the sea so they could not be killed themselve) to different far away parts.

The thing is, the price of 1 Assassin is something 2500 gold, and an upkeep of about 225 or something.
The cooldown is 20 turns, so that is about 7k gold cost, if you do not reach a target.
Even if you do, you get a 25000 gold reward. But you have to consider that this should be subtracted from the Assassin's cost, and is only received every 20 turns. So about 1k extra gold per turn, if you succeed.
If you have 2 assassins(1 from a previous rotation of targets, + a new one) and the RNG messes with you, that is a total of about 20k gold that never went anywhere. Given the high pressure that this faction is in, that is 20k you could have really used elsewhere.

If you have 4 Assassins, that is about 1000 gold per turn that you lose(in addition to the 10k spent to get them). And if you succeed, you lose said assassin(It would have been nice if you at least had a chance to keep it).

It also seems really weird that you get targets from factions you have never seen.


All in all, there seems way better ways to spend your gold. The fact that you lose out on a rite is also a bit of an issue.
Since this assassination mechanic is one of the major flavours of the faction, it should not feel like a hinderance, but an asset.


Sure, if you get lucky, you can get a decent boost, but relying on "luck" does not seem like a thing that elves would do. Skaven on the other hand...

IMO, the changes that need to happen is:
- Roaming fleets will never be targets.
- Targets are taken from a pool of encountered factions, and those that they have encountered(so the enemies/allies of the factions you have encountered).
- A small reduction in upkeep cost.
- A small chance that the assassin survives the assassination(base 10%, could possible be upgraded as part of Alith Anar's skill tree).
- Possible balance the reward based on distance. If you assassinate a close target(4 turns to get there), you might only get 25% of the bounty.

This will ensure that you have various targets up for assassination that you actually have a chance of reaching.
Early on, you will only be able to do 1 assassination per rotation, if you are lucky(so a max of 25000 gold every 20 turns, not a big financial boon, when you offset the cost of the assassin) due to your own economy restrains.

[Tenhys]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

The thing is, the price of 1 Assassin is something 2500 gold, and an upkeep of about 225 or something.
The cooldown is 20 turns, so that is about 7k gold cost, if you do not reach a target.
Even if you do, you get a 25000 gold reward. But you have to consider that this should be subtracted from the Assassin's cost, and is only received every 20 turns. So about 1k extra gold per turn, if you succeed.
If you have 2 assassins(1 from a previous rotation of targets, + a new one) and the RNG messes with you, that is a total of about 20k gold that never went anywhere. Given the high pressure that this faction is in, that is 20k you could have really used elsewhere.

If you have 4 Assassins, that is about 1000 gold per turn that you lose(in addition to the 10k spent to get them). And if you succeed, you lose said assassin(It would have been nice if you at least had a chance to keep it).

It also seems really weird that you get targets from factions you have never seen.


All in all, there seems way better ways to spend your gold. The fact that you lose out on a rite is also a bit of an issue.
Since this assassination mechanic is one of the major flavours of the faction, it should not feel like a hinderance, but an asset.


Sure, if you get lucky, you can get a decent boost, but relying on "luck" does not seem like a thing that elves would do. Skaven on the other hand...

IMO, the changes that need to happen is:
- Roaming fleets will never be targets.
- Targets are taken from a pool of encountered factions, and those that they have encountered(so the enemies/allies of the factions you have encountered).
- A small reduction in upkeep cost.
- A small chance that the assassin survives the assassination(base 10%, could possible be upgraded as part of Alith Anar's skill tree).
- Possible balance the reward based on distance. If you assassinate a close target(4 turns to get there), you might only get 25% of the bounty.

This will ensure that you have various targets up for assassination that you actually have a chance of reaching.
Early on, you will only be able to do 1 assassination per rotation, if you are lucky(so a max of 25000 gold every 20 turns, not a big financial boon, when you offset the cost of the assassin) due to your own economy restrains.

Sorry to butt in and know that i have nothing against the maths ; i'd even had that you're being generous with the "Reward" granted by the assassination quests since some of them do not necessarily goes up to even just 10k (last time i checked.) However you did overlook something else : both the passive stats/traits boosts and influence gains that are going alongside a successful assassination.

The latter should especially be taken into account. Knowing how valuable the "Influence" ressource is for High Elves, it's really difficult to imagine someone that play them to not look forward recruiting Nobles to obtain "Influence" from ennemy settlements and, for someone making such an efficient use of math as yourself, to overlook the cost of such an endeavor. Which includes :

1) The cost of the building itself.
2) The cost of recruitment of the Noble.
3) The upkeep cost of the Noble.
4) The Hero action cost of obtaining influence and the amount of influence gained for the cost.
5) The inevitable RNG going alongside attempting to secure influence, which - in early game - has very high chances of resulting in failing and receiving a "Wounded" state, thus incapaciting the Noble for five turns (without the ability of recruiting another one without increasing the agent limit of Nobles. Which add even more on the cost.)

Now i ask you this : knowing that a level 1 Noble practicing "Secure Influence" action cost around 800 gold, that it has an upkeep cost of around +200 gold and that, at level 1, it can only secure 3 "influence" per turn up to 6 "influence" for around 500 gold per "Secure Influence" action, once fully uppgraded : how much gold and turns are actually required to obtain the necessary amount of "Influence" to recruit a "60 influence trait" class High Elve Lord ?

Now, compare that to a Shadow Hand assassin that with just one "100% successful assassination action" can secure around the same amount of Influence. Tell me now, which is the most worth it ?

[Zane87]

Yeah, I agree totally to Tenhys.

Money is relatively easy to get with HE and is not the real deciding factor, but the huge amount of influence you get with the assasination missions means you can hire several high quality lords or heroes, some of which give global economic boons.

Or you could use it to raise relations with other factions for treaties/confederations.


All in all, that by far outweihts both the hassel to get the assasinations to work as well the cost involved.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Zane87:

Yeah, I agree totally to Tenhys.

Money is relatively easy to get with HE and is not the real deciding factor, but the huge amount of influence you get with the assasination missions means you can hire several high quality lords or heroes, some of which give global economic boons.

Or you could use it to raise relations with other factions for treaties/confederations.


All in all, that by far outweihts both the hassel to get the assasinations to work as well the cost involved.

Not easy to get money early as Nagarythe though. Unless you get lucky and get a quick hold of the Ancient City of Quintex(or what ever it is called), you will be hardpressed to field just a single full army for the first 30 turns. Which means you have to defeat Morathi really early.
Sure, if you were playing as Lothern or Avelorn, you will have more than enough money to field a few armies(and much easier areas to expand and hold).
But as Alith Anar, due to all the corruption and minus to public order, you are constantly running back and forth between what little little territory you can get together to keep rebellions in check, with an army that is mostly spearmen and archers.

So even if you have the influence for a good lord, you dont have the economy to field a lot of armies.
And 120 influence every 20 turns is not really a "huge" boon either. A single, high level commander can generate how much per turn? How much can Lothern and Avelorn generate passively over the course of 20 turns?

As Nagarythe you dont get a lot of influence regularly, because your economy cant handle the Commander/Handmaiden spam like Lothern and Avelorn can, nor do you get intrigue at court events(at least I havent yet. Bug?) to get a bit of influence here and there.
So you are basically relying on those assassinations for early Influence. Miss the first 2 rotations(due to RNG), and you wont be fielding a 60 influence lord until past turn 50, while most of your heroes or other lords will be of low or poor quality(if you have the economy to even buy them).