Total War: WARHAMMER II

Total War: WARHAMMER II

View Stats:
Keego Extremo Aug 28, 2018 @ 12:06pm
Skaven origins
Alright here's my theory about how the skaven came to be. We know Skaven are not part of the beastmen ilk but something different. Beastmen formed by A) a man being corrupted by chaos, B) Being born of a 'doe' or a beast-woman if you will, C) being born from an otherwise healthy human monther and father yet with severe mutations and left in the woods (and abucted by beastmen herds).
And D) which is quasi true, beastmen breeding with regular women.

Within the lore Skaven are considered by some in-universe scholars to be beastmen or are rats that mutated into man-like creatures. However we KNOW there are skaven females and this is the true method of preroduction. For those who don't know the females are called "breeders" or Ratmothers or something, they're large fat creatures with an ungodly reproductive rate unable to move or feed themselves. They're tended by castrated slave rats, and only clan leaders or otherwise prominent members are allowed to breed with them.
So, this begs the question of how the skaven came to be in the first place. Within the empire there's a story called The Doom of Kavzar which deals with the Skaven and their infatuation with bells. It's really vague, and seems to presupposed the skaven already existing so I must discount this as any true origin story.

Now some people irl might think they're a stable beastmen strain or Tzeentch fanboys thinking he had something to do with it despite how stupid and counterintuitive it is for him (even for Tzeentch).
I however pose this theory. They were not descended from men, but descended from rats who had prolonged exposure to warpstone.
Let's say deep below the earth there are warpstone deposits like any other mineral or metal. Rats forming their burrows and nests in underground networks as they do on earth eventually ran into some. After generations of being exposed to its radiation, perhaps even ingesting and inhaling small particles of it, it getting into their water supply, rats began to change to being more man-like and more violent.
This explains a number of things better than "Tzeentch done it". A) It explains why Skaven are so similar to rats and dissimilar to humans. Not just in appearance but in behavior and physcology (although I must admit despite people's preconceptions rats are actually extremely empathetic, more so than most animals). B) It also explains why they are so stable in that there's very little mutations among them (except for horns).
C) why they have their own, basically unique reigion and deity. And D) Why they are not harmed by warpstone, in fact they seem to thrive on it.

To me this makes a hell of a lot more sense than them being beastmen or "dur hur tzeentzch"
< >
Showing 1-15 of 94 comments
Wh♂♂par Aug 28, 2018 @ 12:08pm 
But they are harmed by Warpstone and experience mutations.
Keego Extremo Aug 28, 2018 @ 12:10pm 
Nope. The leaders are addicted to warpstone and it seems to prolong their life, and there arent' really any ratmen mutations other than as I said horns, but that has more to do with their religion I would thing.
Chameon Aug 28, 2018 @ 12:19pm 
Originally posted by Keego Extremo:
Nope. The leaders are addicted to warpstone and it seems to prolong their life, and there arent' really any ratmen mutations other than as I said horns, but that has more to do with their religion I would thing.

In regards to mutations: Horns, a few projects from clan moulder triggering things like Rat Ogres, wings, extra arms, extra heads, although officially they're not supposed to do that.

In regards to the theories: There's another that this is the personal work of one of Nurgle's Greater Daemons gone rogue, another that it's Nurgle in a funny hat, another 'Tzeentch done it', another that the species was merely rodents who got -really- empowered by the warp storm mutating into a new species, in much the same way as Trolls were created by the dark gods as a new species, it goes on and on and on and on, there are notes of humans mutating into Skaven (Both before and after Age of Sigmar started, although after Age of Sigmar started, that was the 'reward' for worshipping the horned rat, you -would- eventually become a skaven), there are spells that turn humans into Skaven as well, there's the possibility this was a nascent or weaker chaos god (More akin to an undivided greater daemon) that showed up with the other four and saw an opportunity in this world while the winds of magic were insane and set up the Skaven....you can keep going on and on. There's really no end to the possible theories.
Zoie Shales Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:01pm 
As a "Skaven expert" myself, Im going to break down some of the lore here.

Skaven females do exist, the Rat Mother's, however they are reduced to mere breeders and are not concidered to be female in their society, they also are 700 pounds and measures 10 feet long from snout to tail, bloated, blind, immobile, druged, propetually birthing creatures, a far cry from depictions of them being attractive. Because they are kept so deep under the surface they are almost never seen, and are surrounded by castrated males who feed and protect them, giving rise to the misconception that the race is completley male. https://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Rat_Mother

The Doom of Kavzar is the most accepted version of their origin, for those who accept that the Skaven exist, an ancient epic poem of thirteen stanzas, in either the original Tilean or a translation. Copies of this tale have all been destroyed or have since gone missing over the course of centuries.(sorry for the long post):

"Once upon a time, long long ago, Men and Dwarfs lived together beneath the roof of one great city. Some said it was the oldest and greatest city in the world and had existed before the time of the longbeards and manlings, build by older and wiser hands in the dawn of the world. The city lay both above and below the earth, in keeping with the nature of the populace that dwelt there. The Dwarfs ruled in their great halls of stone below ground and wrestled the fruits of the rock free with their day-long toil, while the manlings reaped the fields of swaying corn that surrounded the city with a patchwork blanket of gold. The sun smiled, men laughed, and everyone was happy.
One day the men of the city decided that they should give praise to their gods for their good fortunes. They planned a temple such as the world had never seen before. In the central square a colossal hall would be built and topped with a single, cloud-piercing tower. A tower so tall it would touch the very heart of the heavens. After much planning, and with the help of the longbeards, they set about their monumental task.
Weeks became months and months became years and still the manlings built. Men grew old and grey working on that great temple, their sons continuing their work through summer sun and winter rain. At last, after many generations, work began on the great spire itself. Years passed and the tower reached such a height that the manlings found it ever more difficult to take the stone up to the top. Eventually the work slowed to a crawl and finishing the tower seemed impossible. Then one came among the men of the city who offered his help in their great scheme. He asked a single boon of them in return and claimed that if they would grant him this, he would complete the tower in a single night. The manlings said to themselves. "What have we to lose?" and offered to make a bargain with the grey-clad stranger. All he wished was to add his own dedication to the gods onto the temple structure. The manlings agreed and the bargain was struck. At dusk the stranger entered the unfinished temple and bade the manlings to return at midnight. Clouds swept over the moons, cloaking the temple in darkness as the manlings left. All over the city, men watched and waited as the hours slipped past until, near midnight, by ones and twos, they gathered again in the temple square. The wind blew and the clouds parted as they gazed up at the temple. It rose like an unbroken lance against the sky, pure and white. At its very peak a great horned bell hung gleaming coldly in the moonlight. The stranger's dedication to the gods was there but of the stranger himself, there was no sign.
The manlings rejoiced that their father's fathers work was done. They surged forward to enter the temple. Then, at the stroke of midnight, the great bell began to toll, once.... twice.... thrice. Slow, heavy waves of sound rolled across the city. Four... five... six times the bell rang, like the torpid pulse of a bronze giant. Seven... eight... nine, the rolling of the bell grew louder with each ring, and the manlings staggered back from the temple steps clutching their ears. Ten... eleven... twelve... thirteen. At the thirteenth stroke, lightning split the skies and thunder echoes through the night. High above, the dark circle of Morrslieb was lit by a bright flash and all fell ominously silent. The manlings fled to their beds, frightened and puzzled by the portents they had seen. Next morning they arose to find that the darkness had come to their city. Brooding storm clouds reared above the rooftops and such rain fell as had never been seen before. Black, like ash, the rain fell and puddled in the streets, slicking the cobbles with darkly iridescent colours.
At first some of the manlings didn't worry, they waited for the rain to stop so that they might resume their work. But the rain did not stop, the winds blew stronger and lightning shook the high tower. Days stretched into weeks and still the rain did not stop. Each night the bell tolled thirteen times and each morning the darkness lay across the city. The manlings became fearful and prayed to their gods. Still the rains did not stop and the black clouds hung like a shroud over the fields of flattened corn. The Manlings went to the Dwarfs and beseeched their help. The longbeards were unconcerned -- what matter a little rain on the surface? In the bosom of the earth all was warm and dry. Now the manlings huddled in their dwelling, fear gnawing at their hearts. They sent some of their number to faraway places to seek help but none of them returned. Some went to the temple to pray and sacrifice their dwindling food to the gods but they found the temple door closed to them. The rain grew heavier. Dark hailstones fell from the sky and crushed the sodden crops. The great bell tolled a death knell over the terrified city.
Soon great stones cleft the heavens, rushing down like dark meteors to smash the homes of the manlings. Many sickened and died from no apparent cause, and the newborn babies of the manlings were hideously twisted. Skulking vermin devoured what little stored corn there was left and the manlings began to starve. The manling elders went to see the Dwarfs again and this time demanded their help. They wanted to bring their folk below ground to safety, they wanted food. The longbeards grew angry, and told the manlings that the lower workings were flooded and their food had also been devoured by rats. There remained barely enough food and shelter for them and their kinsmen. They cast the manlings out of their halls and closed their doors once more.
In the ruins of the city above, each day became more deadly than the last. The manlings despaired and called for succor from the dark gods, whispered the names of forgotten Daemon Princes in the hope of salvation. But none came -- instead the vermin returned, bigger and bolder than ever. Their slinking, furred shapes infested the broken city, feasting on the fallen and pulling down the weak. Each midnight the bell tolled thirteen times on high, seeming now brazen and triumphant. The manlings lived as hunted creatures in their own city as great rat packs roamed the streets in search of them.
At last the desperate manlings took up such weapons as they had and beat upon the Dwarfs door, threatening that if they did not emerge they would drag them out by their beards. No reply came from within. The manlings took up beams and battered down the doors to reveal the tunnels below, dark and empty. Steeling themselves, the pitiful remnants of the city's once proud populace descended. In the ancient hall of kingship they found the Dwarfs, now naught but gnawed bones and scrapes of cloth. And there they saw by the dying light of their torches the myriad eyes about them, glittering like liquid midnight as the rats closed in for the kill. The manlings stood back to back and fought for their lives, but against such implacable ferocity and countless numbers of the verminous horde, their weapons were useless. The tide of monstrous rats flowed over them one by one, dragging them down to be torn apart, the yellow chisel-teeth sinking into their soft-flesh, the dark tufted mass drowning their pitiful screams with their hideous chittering.....
Translated from the Tilean tale "The Doom of Kavzar" also called "The Curse of Thirteen"

Basicly rats knawed on the Warpstone that fell from the sky durring the events of this tale and evolved into Skaven very fast, showing up shortly after Kavzar was abandoned and then it became the capitol of Skavenblight. The Skaven never existed before this point, so it was possible that the grey-clad stranger mentioned in the text is the Great Horned Rat in disguise.

I have serious doubts that they are decended from beastmen or any other race, and none of the chaos gods really had any influence on them, even though Plague Monk's and Pestilens itself specialize in disease, they don't worship Nurgle, only the plauge aspect of the Horned Rat. Beastmen lothe civilization, and Skaven have one of (or possibly is) the most techilogicly advanced civilizations in the Warhammer Fantasy World, they don't go along well together.

Now, Skaven are typicly labeled as "They don't exist" by only the Empire, other factions, have battled them for centuries or have done deals with them in the past, but they thrive on this secrecy and use it to plot and scheme.
Keego Extremo Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:05pm 
Nurgle makes more sense, and speaking as someone who actually likes Nurgle, I still like my idea much better. The 4 chaos deities already have way too much credit when they can barely do anything in the old world, yet somehow can make a race of beings greater than humans- the ones that consistently fight them back? It's silly.
But still speaking specifically of the theory itself, rats are far too 'clean' to be of Nurgle. I mean sure they carry diseases but most of Nurgle's creations are much more disgusting. The rats are also way too stagnant to be of Tzeentch for that matter. Constant chaos is STILL a constant- the antithesis of Tzeentch.
As for spells turning humans into Skaven, well sure, but that's sort of after the fact don't you think? You're just mimicing an already existing creature, much like Kadon transforming into a manticore or the vampires having various morphs.
Rats and warpstone makes the most sense narratively. Now the horned rat on the other hand- sure why not be a rogue lesser deity. Maybe an amalgam of Tzeentch and Nurgle demons who took the fledgling skaven race under its wing. Hell even an ancient minor human-born deity.
But as for the skaven themselves, I think the warpstone exposed rats is the most coherent.
Keego Extremo Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:08pm 
@Zoie Shales Really doesn't soung like you read my post because I touched on all of that.
Zoie Shales Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:08pm 
Originally posted by Keego Extremo:
@Zoie Shales Really doesn't soung like you read my post because I touched on all of that.

I did, i'm adding my opinion on to it.
Last edited by Zoie Shales; Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:09pm
Keego Extremo Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:09pm 
And that is?
Zoie Shales Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:11pm 
Originally posted by Keego Extremo:
And that is?

That what you say is pretty well known information to anyone who has looked at the lore behind the Skaven, I added a few details that you missed such as more on the Rat Mother's and the Doom of Kavzar itself for those who havent read it. I agree with your points.
Last edited by Zoie Shales; Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:14pm
Keego Extremo Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:14pm 
Ah well okay then. I disagree though about it being well known, people still like to say it was Tzeentch. These are of course Tzeentch fanboys and should not be paid attention to, as nothing they say ever makes any sense.
I also don't believe the transformation from rat to skaven needs to be fast. I like it better the idea that the skaven were created over a few generations, though it should be noted that in even 5 years you could have had what a dozen or more rat generations?
Chameon Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:20pm 
Originally posted by Keego Extremo:
Nurgle makes more sense, and speaking as someone who actually likes Nurgle, I still like my idea much better. The 4 chaos deities already have way too much credit when they can barely do anything in the old world, yet somehow can make a race of beings greater than humans- the ones that consistently fight them back? It's silly.
But still speaking specifically of the theory itself, rats are far too 'clean' to be of Nurgle. I mean sure they carry diseases but most of Nurgle's creations are much more disgusting. The rats are also way too stagnant to be of Tzeentch for that matter. Constant chaos is STILL a constant- the antithesis of Tzeentch.
As for spells turning humans into Skaven, well sure, but that's sort of after the fact don't you think? You're just mimicing an already existing creature, much like Kadon transforming into a manticore or the vampires having various morphs.
Rats and warpstone makes the most sense narratively. Now the horned rat on the other hand- sure why not be a rogue lesser deity. Maybe an amalgam of Tzeentch and Nurgle demons who took the fledgling skaven race under its wing. Hell even an ancient minor human-born deity.
But as for the skaven themselves, I think the warpstone exposed rats is the most coherent.

Here's three little notes in the nurgle theory, since that tickles your fancy. I would like to note that this layers well with the doom of Kazvar being true.

1: Nurgle never uses rats for his plagues. If they hit rats, he doesn't complain, but they are never the main plague vector in Warhammer Fantasy. Any plagues from rats are either natural or from the Horned Rats' worshippers.
2: Nurgle has a section of his garden kept empty called the "Lair of the Thirteenth Lord", it is also worth noting that the Horned Rats' favored number is 13. Which, at the very least, indicates some correlation given the simple note that it is 'empty'.
3: Clan Pestilenz received gifts (Or rather, the multitude of Clans that comprise Clan Pestilenz) to survive the vast degree of diseases from Lustria early on that match eerily well with Nurgle's list of gifts, including an immunity (or simple lack of caring) for the negative effects of the illnesses whilst simultaneously being carriers, and a certain degree of toughness and strength increase from the illnesses. And yet, they have not rededicated to Nurgle. Their particular interpretation of the Horned Rat -may- be Nurgle in a funny hat, except they also maintain the magical stylings of the more normal Skaven as well, which leads one to wonder if the Horned Rat has those capacities as part of its' nature.

I'll admit to getting verbose. As for the spells morphing people into Skaven and mutations morphing people into Skaven, I mainly noted it to indicate that your theory was in a crowded area. There are rather a lot of theories on the origins of the Skaven, some of which discredit or dispute the Doom of Kazvar, some of which support the Doom of Kazvar, and on and on it goes. In the end, I would say that this is a disputable area. It really depends on any number of factors, and the biggest question is Chicken or the Egg? Did the Horned Rat make the Skaven, or did the Skaven make the Horned Rat? And if the Horned Rat made the Skaven, did the Skaven then twist the Horned Rat into being what they needed/wanted it to be?
Zoie Shales Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:21pm 
Originally posted by Keego Extremo:
Ah well okay then. I disagree though about it being well known, people still like to say it was Tzeentch. These are of course Tzeentch fanboys and should not be paid attention to, as nothing they say ever makes any sense.
I also don't believe the transformation from rat to skaven needs to be fast. I like it better the idea that the skaven were created over a few generations, though it should be noted that in even 5 years you could have had what a dozen or more rat generations?

Well, "Well Known" as far as a Tilean Folk tale and the version of the origin most turn to seeking a answer to where they come from, though you know, if you think they exist that is.

Tzeentch is twisted, personally Im not all that convinced the lord of change had a tenticle to play in the story but *shrugs*

I said "Fast" in they didn't exist and then within about a few decades after the bell rung and Kavzar was destroyed, the first true Skaven emerge as masters of Skavenblight, for them it would have been perhaps a lifetime or a few, true, no Skaven alive remembers the events as they don't really live that long aside from a few that have been around for centiries like Ikit or Skrolk, and they only have the desire to look at the present and future, not the past.
Last edited by Zoie Shales; Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:28pm
Throgg Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:21pm 
Skaven aren't real. It's just a myth.
Dr. Uncredible Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:22pm 
@Zoie: Hells, I read that story so long ago, thank you for reminding me!

I personally believe the Horned Rat, is a minor Chaos God in it´s own right, with it´s own mutations and desires, an individual skaven might not have much presence in the warp, but by glob there´s a lot of the blighters.
Could be that the horned one orchastrated the doom of Kazvar, bringing the shower of warpstone meteorites ´pon the city.
Or possibly born afterwards, from the fevered little desires of the newly warpstone-borne ratmen.
Zoie Shales Aug 28, 2018 @ 1:25pm 
Originally posted by RedundantDummy:
Skaven aren't real. It's just a myth.

Empire man-thing, yes yes.

Originally posted by Dr. Uncredible:
@Zoie: Hells, I read that story so long ago, thank you for reminding me!
You are welcome!
< >
Showing 1-15 of 94 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Aug 28, 2018 @ 12:06pm
Posts: 94