handmaiden upgrades

[Mr Robert House]

are leutenant and protector of the everqueen any good? compared to the diplomat path for the constant influence gain they dont seem great. and the small upgrades for their ranged attack seem unlikely to make it worth using over their melee.

[Mr Robert House]

bump

[lump0815]

They are ok'ish for use in an army:
- 1 leutenant in a missile-heavy army is kindof obligatory (final skill adds hawkish precision to all sorts of archer units in the handmaiden's army),
- protectors have 2 different uses in an army: Their protection aura is great to support melee heroes, and their rooting ability (again, final tier) has it's use in range-focussed armies.



Diplomat-tree isn't so much better than those 2 imo; having a constant income of influence surely sounds appealing - but your "normal" sources for that (Noble-actions, missions/dilemmas, assassinations(Naggarythe)) usually suffice; you can't afford maintaining 2358768 armies anyway, and heroes are capped.

[Aenarion]

I would always take diplo. If you recruit in early-mid game it's going to net you hundreds of influence, which would let you get, say, four mages with administrator, worth 10,000-20,000 gold per turn parked in lothern. That's enough to support an entire extra army. No way there is an equivalent benefit from little army buffs here and there.

[Mr Robert House]

hold on what does hawkish precision do?

[lump0815]

Originally posted by Mr Robert House:

hold on what does hawkish precision do?

It adds +15% ap damage as long as your target is atleast 70m away.

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

I would always take diplo.
...

Matter of taste. Your reasoning is - imo - wrong tho. You need 1 lvl4 capital per Handmaiden (and get +2 for commanding Allarielle /w "Tradition dictates"-tree), which means you can't have many - if any - until mid-game.

At which point, you "should" have a handful Nobles out for farming Influence anyway - which is more effective per hero (+3 at lvl10 instead of +1 from (earliest, if you saved skill-points) lvl12 on), plus it saves you Entrepeneur-slots (which is the trait you meant; Administrator reduces building cost and time) since Handmaiden, just like Mages, can come /w that trait; if you rely on them to get your influence-eco running, however, you won't be able to wait several turns until a "right one" pops up in recruitment.

(Besides, your income-boost numbers are plain fiction. 1 Entrepeneur adds 30% from all provincial buildings; in Lothern's case, that is a maximum of [480(max-lvl main buildings), +1400(harbours, lvl5 and 3), +600(1x entertainment4, 3x lvl3), +800(4x industry) 3280] x 0,3 = 984; the 3% tax rate bonus has nothing to do /w the Entrepeneur's location, plus depends on your general economical strength impact-wise;
to net in 10k /w 4 Entrepeneurs tho, you'll need a total tax income of around 50k "vanilla" (i.e., at 100%) alongside a fully economy-based Lothern, plus Entrepeneurs "parked" there - haven't seen a single game in well over 3000 hours (wh1 and 2 together) in which i still felt ANY necessity of increasing income at a point that late into a game....)

[Ashantai]

I never take diplomat honestly. Hawkish precision and entangle are so astoundingly good that they nullify the need for influence...which you can get from events or nobles.
Handmaidens meanwhile become absolute beasts in combat.

[Orderan]

I always go for lieutenant, the new archers become absolute beasts with it.

[Aenarion]

Originally posted by lump0815:

Originally posted by Mr Robert House:

hold on what does hawkish precision do?

It adds +15% ap damage as long as your target is atleast 70m away.

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

I would always take diplo.
...

Matter of taste. Your reasoning is - imo - wrong tho. You need 1 lvl4 capital per Handmaiden (and get +2 for commanding Allarielle /w "Tradition dictates"-tree), which means you can't have many - if any - until mid-game.

At which point, you "should" have a handful Nobles out for farming Influence anyway - which is more effective per hero (+3 at lvl10 instead of +1 from (earliest, if you saved skill-points) lvl12 on), plus it saves you Entrepeneur-slots (which is the trait you meant; Administrator reduces building cost and time) since Handmaiden, just like Mages, can come /w that trait; if you rely on them to get your influence-eco running, however, you won't be able to wait several turns until a "right one" pops up in recruitment.

(Besides, your income-boost numbers are plain fiction. 1 Entrepeneur adds 30% from all provincial buildings; in Lothern's case, that is a maximum of [480(max-lvl main buildings), +1400(harbours, lvl5 and 3), +600(1x entertainment4, 3x lvl3), +800(4x industry) 3280] x 0,3 = 984; the 3% tax rate bonus has nothing to do /w the Entrepeneur's location, plus depends on your general economical strength impact-wise;
to net in 10k /w 4 Entrepeneurs tho, you'll need a total tax income of around 50k "vanilla" (i.e., at 100%) alongside a fully economy-based Lothern, plus Entrepeneurs "parked" there - haven't seen a single game in well over 3000 hours (wh1 and 2 together) in which i still felt ANY necessity of increasing income at a point that late into a game....)

I respectfully disagree:
- lvl 3 building, not lvl 4
- you are sacrificing replenishment, combat efficacy and money if you have nobles off collecting influence. Diplo handmaidens give you influence without the downsides.
- even if you did have nobles out collecting influence, it's not like there's some cap beyond which influence loses value. More is always better so take diplo handmaidens as well
- not sure what you mean with 'waiting' for the right trait; that's the same regardless of whether you go diplo or not (and not a factor at all for mages, if you meant that, because there's always an entrepreneur available)
- again, like influence, there's no cut off point for income. More is simply always better.
- income boost works exactly as I say. 2,500 per mage is perfectly achievable in mid game, and even 5,000 in the end game, e.g.:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1496752239
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1496752563

You're right that the trait is called entrepreneur though :)

[lump0815]

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

...
I respectfully disagree:
- lvl 3 building, not lvl 4
- you are sacrificing replenishment, combat efficacy and money if you have nobles off collecting influence. Diplo handmaidens give you influence without the downsides.
- even if you did have nobles out collecting influence, it's not like there's some cap beyond which influence loses value. More is always better so take diplo handmaidens as well
- not sure what you mean with 'waiting' for the right trait; that's the same regardless of whether you go diplo or not (and not a factor at all for mages, if you meant that, because there's always an entrepreneur available)
- again, like influence, there's no cut off point for income. More is simply always better.
- income boost works exactly as I say. 2,500 per mage is perfectly achievable in mid game, and even 5,000 in the end game, e.g.:
...

- Just started a new HE-campaign to check back - Handmaiden's Gallery is lvl4.

- Replenish troops is available for both Nobles and Handmaidens - since it's effect doesn't stack, there is no loss in replenishment when picking Handmaidens over Nobles.

Combat efficiency... well, i guess it's a matter of taste, i personally find Nobles being one of the worst picks for army support tho; they can't ever decide a battle on their own like mages can with a single cast, they have no army-wide buffs apart from their starting trait (exactly the same traits are available on other heroes tho; honed and resistant or among my favorite picks there), and they can't even train "their" army (Training-skill is limited to Loremasters of Hoeth).

Money; yes. "Increase Trade" is a local effect which won't do you any good on Nobles who are dispatched "somewhere abroad".

- There actually is a soft cap for influence; it becomes a dead ressource once you have recruited all your available heroes (a.k.a. 10 of each type), and maintain more armies than you'd ever need (i.e., endgame when you "could" roll /w 4-5 armies just fine, but usually have more like 9-10).
(Obviously, you can always spend influence on diplomacy - that has it's use in early game when you want to confederate /w little effort; apart from that, i don't see much use for this mechanic tho)

- /w "waiting", i referred to the option to pick Handmaidens /w Entrepeneur-trait; while, as you pointed out already, there's pretty much always a mage /w that trait available due to the sheer amount of mages in queue, such a recruitment pattern for Handmaidens can be somewhat time-consuming since there's usually just 1 or 2 "40influence"-options at any given time; however, when you pick a Handmaiden for diplo-tree, you shouldn't embed her into an army later on, seeing how bad ranged heroes are in combat - which makes cherrypicking Entrepeneur-trait for such Handmaidens somewhat a no-brainer (since it's clearly the best trait for "home alone"-heroes; infact, i tend to pick mages exclusively /w it, even when i plan to embed them in my armies).

- "mo' money mo' good" works, sure. Just, it isn't needed any more at some point. I tend to have a gross income of around 150-200k/turn in endgame - at that point, i rly don't see any greater value in some extra boosting ^^.


Coming to an end /w this wall of text, i guess there's no "mandatory playstyle"; i can imagine that a income-oriented hero development can have it's use. Just, "i personally" prefer handmaidens as army-support units rather than having them idle at home. Nobles can be substituted /w units quite well, while Handmaidens can't - thus "my" choice.

[Powercow]

The haindmaiden gallery is level 3 for Avelorn, level 4 for everyone else -- that's where the confusion seems to be lying.

Also, the root effect is just god-tier. It's 22% more damage for Sisters of Avelorn because of the fire vulnerability, plus immobilize means if you have a ranged-heavy army you can root then burn down 2-3 groups of enemy cavalry and monsters before the effect wears off. Plus your handmaiden becomes a supertank, and put her on a horse and she can run around on her own with relative impunity since nothing's going to really kill her.

The 15% ranged AP damage sounds neat, and it kinda is, but only is very long, very protracted battles where your Sisters somehow don't run out of ammo or get forced into melee by flanking foes. I prefer being able to stop all incoming damage and almost win the entire battle in a single root over a minor damage gain. Do remember the 15% isn't to ranged damage, only to the ranged *armor piercing* damage, which means it's almost entirely worthless for anything that's not a SoA.

The influence and diplomacy gains are worthless. Just hire a couple nobles and spam Secure Influence on someone nobody likes (greenskin, skaven, etc.) to get everyone to love you diplomatically, plus you can pick up extra income from the Noble.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

I would always take diplo. If you recruit in early-mid game it's going to net you hundreds of influence, which would let you get, say, four mages with administrator, worth 10,000-20,000 gold per turn parked in lothern. That's enough to support an entire extra army. No way there is an equivalent benefit from little army buffs here and there.

Isn't that 4 mages you aren't using in your armies? I guess you can use loremasters as your casters but I like mages better.

Also the only faction I have HMs early with is averlorn. It would be like turn 50 or so before I get the diplomat ability on say Tyrion, cause I need a level 4 province and leveling a HM, and usually by turn 100 or so the game is at that steamroll point where its just 1-2 stacks rolling over enemies, 2-3 stacks killing chaos invasion, and your LL with an invulnerable army hunting down that pansy Archaeon. Welp for high elves I'd specifically use Allarielle unless I got tyrion sword of khaine.

[Loomi]

I was gonna make a big post saying all the stuff Powercow said, but he/she beat me to it.
The TLDR would be: Melee HMs with net >>>>>>>>> Ranged HMs with hawkish precision or campaign HM with influence trait. Add the incendiary trait to that melee HM and you've got yourself a beast.

@lump0815: The resistant trait for handmaidens is bugged and not working. It's actually a lord-trait that somehow found it's way into the hero-trait pool, but since it says "lord's army" it doesn't work.

So the only REALLY good pick for your melee HMs is incendiary.

[Aenarion]

Originally posted by Boneripper:

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

I would always take diplo. If you recruit in early-mid game it's going to net you hundreds of influence, which would let you get, say, four mages with administrator, worth 10,000-20,000 gold per turn parked in lothern. That's enough to support an entire extra army. No way there is an equivalent benefit from little army buffs here and there.

Isn't that 4 mages you aren't using in your armies? I guess you can use loremasters as your casters but I like mages better.

Except in very early game you should have more mage slots than you need. The AI builds mage buildings everywhere so you get loads of them from confed and conquest, and they're worth keeping and upgrading for swordmasters and factionwide buffs. I posted a screenshot above showing my 32 mage capacity, and even in mid game you should be into double figures with only 2-4 needed for armies (two armies will have caster LLs of course).

[Mr Robert House]

incindiery is a massively overpowered trait though, compared to the other options. you can have a little armor and mellee defense if you want or you can have a hero who can just murder lords.

[Aenarion]

Originally posted by lump0815:

Originally posted by rymeintrinseca:

...
I respectfully disagree:
- lvl 3 building, not lvl 4
- you are sacrificing replenishment, combat efficacy and money if you have nobles off collecting influence. Diplo handmaidens give you influence without the downsides.
- even if you did have nobles out collecting influence, it's not like there's some cap beyond which influence loses value. More is always better so take diplo handmaidens as well
- not sure what you mean with 'waiting' for the right trait; that's the same regardless of whether you go diplo or not (and not a factor at all for mages, if you meant that, because there's always an entrepreneur available)
- again, like influence, there's no cut off point for income. More is simply always better.
- income boost works exactly as I say. 2,500 per mage is perfectly achievable in mid game, and even 5,000 in the end game, e.g.:
...

- Just started a new HE-campaign to check back - Handmaiden's Gallery is lvl4.

- Replenish troops is available for both Nobles and Handmaidens - since it's effect doesn't stack, there is no loss in replenishment when picking Handmaidens over Nobles.

Combat efficiency... well, i guess it's a matter of taste, i personally find Nobles being one of the worst picks for army support tho; they can't ever decide a battle on their own like mages can with a single cast, they have no army-wide buffs apart from their starting trait (exactly the same traits are available on other heroes tho; honed and resistant or among my favorite picks there), and they can't even train "their" army (Training-skill is limited to Loremasters of Hoeth).

Money; yes. "Increase Trade" is a local effect which won't do you any good on Nobles who are dispatched "somewhere abroad".

- There actually is a soft cap for influence; it becomes a dead ressource once you have recruited all your available heroes (a.k.a. 10 of each type), and maintain more armies than you'd ever need (i.e., endgame when you "could" roll /w 4-5 armies just fine, but usually have more like 9-10).
(Obviously, you can always spend influence on diplomacy - that has it's use in early game when you want to confederate /w little effort; apart from that, i don't see much use for this mechanic tho)

- /w "waiting", i referred to the option to pick Handmaidens /w Entrepeneur-trait; while, as you pointed out already, there's pretty much always a mage /w that trait available due to the sheer amount of mages in queue, such a recruitment pattern for Handmaidens can be somewhat time-consuming since there's usually just 1 or 2 "40influence"-options at any given time; however, when you pick a Handmaiden for diplo-tree, you shouldn't embed her into an army later on, seeing how bad ranged heroes are in combat - which makes cherrypicking Entrepeneur-trait for such Handmaidens somewhat a no-brainer (since it's clearly the best trait for "home alone"-heroes; infact, i tend to pick mages exclusively /w it, even when i plan to embed them in my armies).

- "mo' money mo' good" works, sure. Just, it isn't needed any more at some point. I tend to have a gross income of around 150-200k/turn in endgame - at that point, i rly don't see any greater value in some extra boosting ^^.


Coming to an end /w this wall of text, i guess there's no "mandatory playstyle"; i can imagine that a income-oriented hero development can have it's use. Just, "i personally" prefer handmaidens as army-support units rather than having them idle at home. Nobles can be substituted /w units quite well, while Handmaidens can't - thus "my" choice.

Not going to do a full point by point rebuttal as I think we're not actually disagreeing that much, it's just different playstyles. But briefly, the level 3/4 thing is just avelorn vs others as someone else said. I think the benefit of more influence is unlimited in practice because you can turn it into an income stream via entrepreneurs (and as explained above, mage slots are not a limiting factor). Nobles and handmaidens are great in combat as blob magnets for vortex spells, war machine/character hunting, etc (the bow on the handmaiden is misleading, she's more a melee fighter). Finally, replenishment does seem to stack across different heroes.