Godmode Tyrion

[Aenarion]

Raw stats+equipment:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1446760766
With actives:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1446761591
Usual combat stats (including perma-Martial Prowess):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1446760126
- max resistance (90%) against all attacks - 60% ward, 33% physical, 55% magical, 60% missile, 70% fire (beat Wurrzag, Azhag, etc)
- regen (beat Isabella)
- 5329HP (Gore Drenched)
- 155 armour
- 119 MD (Superior Defender and beat Kroq-Gar)
- 155 MA (Superior Attacker and beat Ungrim)
- 1473 damage (beat Grimgor)
- magic damage, fire, poison (beat Ghorst)
- huge charge bonus, anti-large, anti-infantry, etc (beat Louen, Kholek, Queek, etc)

You can send him on his own against multiple stacks and he comes out with full HP:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1448730044

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1448586909

(Very hard/very hard, large unit size, and no mods of course.)

[Lampros]

Nguyên văn bởi Boneripper:

The ai doesn't build their lords to be that powerful. Think of it this way, I killed sword of khaine Tyrion with 2 marauder berserkers (well stats wise they could probably beat chosen greatweapons, over 80 ma and weapon strength). His Tyrion can solo 3 stacks. If you threw say an ai kholek in there, Tyrion probably kills him in like 10 attacks (1800 damage and ai kholek is probably like 40 percent ward save at best), and he'd be hitting like half the time for 50 damage or so (his 500 weapon strength vs 90 percent ward save). I can't see how the addition of even an op lord would make any difference.

But wouldn't getting all their melee skills maxed and having unique items in itself make some characters very powerful? For instance, I thought Kholek can get close to max Ward save through gear and skills? I've never played any Chaos campaign, but this I recall a number of people claiming this.

Nguyên văn bởi rymeintrinseca:

You can see Tyrion's total HP pool (regular HP+regen cap) is 9325 (5329+3996). He's suffered 2698 damage (3996-1298). So my back-of-an-envelope calculation is that the enemy force would have to be 3.5 times stronger (9325/2698) to run him close, i.e. 5 full stacks with this unit composition or equivalent. I realize there's a bit more to it than that when you consider morale etc but it gives you a rough idea of the upper limit of what he could take on.

This is such a poor balancing then. What kind of stats did Kroq-Gar have?

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

And in regards to Malekith vs Tyrion, a more apt comparison would be Malekith on foot vs Tyrion. On foot, Malekith suffers none of the drawbacks of being mounted on a dragon making him much more powerful defensively. He's an infantry sized target so he'll have smaller surface area for melee to surround him and projectiles are less likely to hit him. In terms of MA, MD, and weapon strength, Tyrion is superior but only slightly. In Malekith's case, you can reach the cap of max resistance to everything except fire. Where Malekith has an advantage is killing power. Tyrion only has SoK's activated ability whereas Malekith has Gaze of Malice, Dark Magic Lore, and DE specific items that give him more nuking power. Tyrion is still stronger defensively but Malekith can reach a level where he'll regenerate damage as quickly as he takes it. Essentially, Tyrion is defensively superior on paper but equal in practice. However Malekith kills much more quickly and dead enemies can't attack.

That sounds right. I just played a Malekith campaign, and I was surprised at his raw power. But I was not impressed with the rest of the DE - its military, its campaign mechanics (constant rebellions, WTF?; Loyalty, etc.).

By the way, while being on a dragon makes you more vulnerable, wouldn't you be safer on it if you are close to the max Ward save limit? At 80-90 percent save plus massive regen pool, even ranged troops pose little threat unless you are up against 12-plus unit of Waywatchers or something like that.

[Aenarion]

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

You sure it's not 40 including starting trait (39+1 innate trait for most lords)? I just created a mod that starts Tyrion with 40 traits + starting trait and only 39 appeared.

Well, I know my Tyrion stopped getting traits after the 31st (including the default Great Warrior), because I defeated several additional LLs, got the notification about the trait, but it never made it to my trait list nor changed the relevant stats.

Is it possible that the traits with multiple levels count for more than one? Maybe if you add on the extra levels that would get me to 40.

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

And in regards to Malekith vs Tyrion, a more apt comparison would be Malekith on foot vs Tyrion. On foot, Malekith suffers none of the drawbacks of being mounted on a dragon making him much more powerful defensively. He's an infantry sized target so he'll have smaller surface area for melee to surround him and projectiles are less likely to hit him. In terms of MA, MD, and weapon strength, Tyrion is superior but only slightly. In Malekith's case, you can reach the cap of max resistance to everything except fire. Where Malekith has an advantage is killing power. Tyrion only has SoK's activated ability whereas Malekith has Gaze of Malice, Dark Magic Lore, and DE specific items that give him more nuking power. Tyrion is still stronger defensively but Malekith can reach a level where he'll regenerate damage as quickly as he takes it. Essentially, Tyrion is defensively superior on paper but equal in practice. However Malekith kills much more quickly and dead enemies can't attack.

No, because regen isn't a bottomless pit. It's capped at 75% of your starting HP.

Malekith on foot has some pretty big defensive disadvantages compared to Tyrion:

- Much lower HP (doesn't have Tyrion's +25% HP skill)
- Regen pool is therefore smaller by the same amount
- Significantly lower armour (looks like his max is ~126, compared to 161 for Tyrion)
- Significantly lower MD (I make the maximum 97, compared to Tyrion's 119 - and as I explained above, very high MD is important for a one man army as they will be flanked most of the time).

And because of the regen cap, this is not just a paper disadvantage - take all these elements together and you have a very big difference in survivability.

On the other hand, you are of course quite right that Malekith is still very survivable and has a lot more in his offensive arsenal. I'm sure he can basically match Tyrion in overall power, maybe a little ahead, maybe a little behind, I can't say for sure. For all practical purposes these characters are basically 'I win' buttons when maxed out.

[Aenarion]

Nguyên văn bởi Lampros:

This is such a poor balancing then. What kind of stats did Kroq-Gar have?

Don't recall, but honestly with Tyrion built like this other lords can't really touch him. Even with 89 melee attack they'd only hit him 10% of the time; if they do get a hit the damage is resisted to <50. Whereas he's hitting them 90% of the time for four digit damage.

The stuff that damages him more is just getting blobbed and having dozens of models swinging at him for 20-30 mins straight (in game time, I speed it up of course).

[Lampros]

Nguyên văn bởi rymeintrinseca:

Nguyên văn bởi Lampros:

This is such a poor balancing then. What kind of stats did Kroq-Gar have?

Don't recall, but honestly with Tyrion built like this other lords can't really touch him. Even with 89 melee attack they'd only hit him 10% of the time; if they do get a hit the damage is resisted to <50. Whereas he's hitting them 90% of the time for four digit damage.

The stuff that damages him more is just getting blobbed and having dozens of models swinging at him for 20-30 mins straight (in game time, I speed it up of course).

Well, I modded my games to have Ward save max of 50 percent. The tabletop max was that, and I think the game is more balanced and immersive that way. Even without the Widowmaker (and its 30 percent Ward save), I have characters routinely holding off a flank with 3-4 elite units swinging at him in a typical end-game scenario, and this is no longer fun.

[JODEGAFUN]

Nguyên văn bởi rymeintrinseca:

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

You sure it's not 40 including starting trait (39+1 innate trait for most lords)? I just created a mod that starts Tyrion with 40 traits + starting trait and only 39 appeared.

Well, I know my Tyrion stopped getting traits after the 31st (including the default Great Warrior), because I defeated several additional LLs, got the notification about the trait, but it never made it to my trait list nor changed the relevant stats.

Is it possible that the traits with multiple levels count for more than one? Maybe if you add on the extra levels that would get me to 40.

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

And in regards to Malekith vs Tyrion, a more apt comparison would be Malekith on foot vs Tyrion. On foot, Malekith suffers none of the drawbacks of being mounted on a dragon making him much more powerful defensively. He's an infantry sized target so he'll have smaller surface area for melee to surround him and projectiles are less likely to hit him. In terms of MA, MD, and weapon strength, Tyrion is superior but only slightly. In Malekith's case, you can reach the cap of max resistance to everything except fire. Where Malekith has an advantage is killing power. Tyrion only has SoK's activated ability whereas Malekith has Gaze of Malice, Dark Magic Lore, and DE specific items that give him more nuking power. Tyrion is still stronger defensively but Malekith can reach a level where he'll regenerate damage as quickly as he takes it. Essentially, Tyrion is defensively superior on paper but equal in practice. However Malekith kills much more quickly and dead enemies can't attack.

No, because regen isn't a bottomless pit. It's capped at 75% of your starting HP.

Malekith on foot has some pretty big defensive disadvantages compared to Tyrion:

- Much lower HP (doesn't have Tyrion's +25% HP skill)
- Regen pool is therefore smaller by the same amount
- Significantly lower armour (looks like his max is ~126, compared to 161 for Tyrion)
- Significantly lower MD (I make the maximum 97, compared to Tyrion's 119 - and as I explained above, very high MD is important for a one man army as they will be flanked most of the time).

And because of the regen cap, this is not just a paper disadvantage - take all these elements together and you have a very big difference in survivability.

On the other hand, you are of course quite right that Malekith is still very survivable and has a lot more in his offensive arsenal. I'm sure he can basically match Tyrion in overall power, maybe a little ahead, maybe a little behind, I can't say for sure. For all practical purposes these characters are basically 'I win' buttons when maxed out.

Malekith must sit on his dragon, and he has one great advantage Tyrion never get, the DK has a blue armor which gives bloodsucking like a vamp, it is much faster regeneration than the normal regeneration, but work only if fight. You can combinate it with regeneration and you could not die. I wiped out Hellpit Lv 5 + army in garrison with several warpcanons and hordes of globadiers and gutterruners with Malekith alone. I had full hp as it ended. But my Malekith was actually a general i had spend my points for red and spelltree+ lightning strike and his special traits, not one for the yellow and he was not stoppable. Imagine i would put all points on the yellow, i think no army would stop him execpt 20+ stardragons with maxed out hereo ore a buffed battery of near 20 warpcanons.
But at least i think you could build several lords as one man army with this swort if you kicked out Isabella for regeneration ore have some other replenish of hp.
Good candidates are Louen (he has additional regeneration which stacks with regeneration) Kolek and Archaon, i think need no comment.
For the empire KF maybe. Azhag on his Vywer+ dead magic would be op too, grimgor should work too.
Mazdamundi and Hellebron have both regeneration as trait, with the blade they should be one man/women army, even mazadmundi does not have high MD/and MA he has an high hp pool.

And i stop here but could mention at least 10 others who would do one man armie with this blade.

[Lampros]

Nguyên văn bởi JODEGAFUN:

Malekith must sit on his dragon, and he has one great advantage Tyrion never get, the DK has a blue armor which gives bloodsucking like a vamp, it is much faster regeneration than the normal regeneration, but work only if fight. You can combinate it with regeneration and you could not die. I wiped out Hellpit Lv 5 + army in garrison with several warpcanons and hordes of globadiers and gutterruners with Malekith alone. I had full hp as it ended. But my Malekith was actually a general i had spend my points for red and spelltree+ lightning strike and his special traits, not one for the yellow and he was not stoppable. Imagine i would put all points on the yellow, i think no army would stop him execpt 20+ stardragons with maxed out hereo ore a buffed battery of near 20 warpcanons.
But at least i think you could build several lords as one man army with this swort if you kicked out Isabella for regeneration ore have some other replenish of hp.
Good candidates are Louen (he has additional regeneration which stacks with regeneration) Kolek and Archaon, i think need no comment.
For the empire KF maybe. Azhag on his Vywer+ dead magic would be op too, grimgor should work too.
Mazdamundi and Hellebron have both regeneration as trait, with the blade they should be one man/women army, even mazadmundi does not have high MD/and MA he has an high hp pool.

And i stop here but could mention at least 10 others who would do one man armie with this blade.

I agree with you; I still do not understand the argument that Malekith is safer on foot. If on foot, he could spend half of the fight on his bottom against certain cavalry or monster-centric armies. And ranged troops are really not that hard to deal with if you have huge Ward save and on a dragon.

As for your last point: It isn't just LLs; any melee-centric or hybrid generic Lords can be one-man armies with the Widowmaker. It shouldn't be in the game - or perhaps the penalties should be harsher.

[JX83]

@Lampros

If you get into melee, you are always safer on foot than you are on a dragon, even with max ward save. I've done the max all resistances + regeneration build myself before and I could notice a difference in survivability between Tyrion alone and Tyrion plus his pony.

Now if you add micro into the mix, then Malekith can be safer on his dragon. But that means you need to manually dodge projectiles and cycle charge so you don't stay in sustained melee.

@rymeintrinseca

You can confirm by opening your save file in a save editor. My theory is that you have incomplete traits. That is, you triggered the condition for getting a point in the trait but you don't have enough points to meet the trait's activation threshold. These incomplete traits still take up trait slots.

Edit: That's what on paper means. Yes, Tyrion has much more survivability and he has a much higher upper limit of what he can tank but that upper limit will never be reached.

@JODEGAFUN

There's a regeneration cap. In practice, it will almost never come into play. In theory, against an infinite enemy, he'll eventually go down. The question is at what point does he go down.

[JODEGAFUN]

Nguyên văn bởi Lampros:

Nguyên văn bởi JODEGAFUN:

Malekith must sit on his dragon, and he has one great advantage Tyrion never get, the DK has a blue armor which gives bloodsucking like a vamp, it is much faster regeneration than the normal regeneration, but work only if fight. You can combinate it with regeneration and you could not die. I wiped out Hellpit Lv 5 + army in garrison with several warpcanons and hordes of globadiers and gutterruners with Malekith alone. I had full hp as it ended. But my Malekith was actually a general i had spend my points for red and spelltree+ lightning strike and his special traits, not one for the yellow and he was not stoppable. Imagine i would put all points on the yellow, i think no army would stop him execpt 20+ stardragons with maxed out hereo ore a buffed battery of near 20 warpcanons.
But at least i think you could build several lords as one man army with this swort if you kicked out Isabella for regeneration ore have some other replenish of hp.
Good candidates are Louen (he has additional regeneration which stacks with regeneration) Kolek and Archaon, i think need no comment.
For the empire KF maybe. Azhag on his Vywer+ dead magic would be op too, grimgor should work too.
Mazdamundi and Hellebron have both regeneration as trait, with the blade they should be one man/women army, even mazadmundi does not have high MD/and MA he has an high hp pool.

And i stop here but could mention at least 10 others who would do one man armie with this blade.

I agree with you; I still do not understand the argument that Malekith is safer on foot. If on foot, he could spend half of the fight on his bottom against certain cavalry or monster-centric armies. And ranged troops are really not that hard to deal with if you have huge Ward save and on a dragon.

As for your last point: It isn't just LLs; any melee-centric or hybrid generic Lords can be one-man armies with the Widowmaker. It shouldn't be in the game - or perhaps the penalties should be harsher.

Yes any generic meele lord can be one man/women army exspecialy vampire lords. They get bloodsucking and spells to kill the occessional bloobs around you (wind of death is not good aigans single target)+ you still can get regeneration if you play Manfred (who is for sure the same class if not even higher than Malekith with his zombiedragon and vamp abilities)

[Lampros]

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

@Lampros

If you get into melee, you are always safer on foot than you are on a dragon, even with max ward save. I've done the max all resistances + regeneration build myself before and I could notice a difference in survivability between Tyrion alone and Tyrion plus his pony.

Now if you add micro into the mix, then Malekith can be safer on his dragon. But that means you need to manually dodge projectiles and cycle charge so you don't stay in sustained melee.

I already addressed the ranged projectile issue though. Unless you are facing literally like a dozen elite ranged units in an army like Waywatchers, you can just head straight to the ranged troops first, and they are easy to kill.

[JX83]

You can engage one and only one regiment of ranged units in melee. Every other unit will be free to shoot you on a dragon. They can't if you're on foot because they'll be obstructed.

[Aenarion]

Foot is more survivable against melee infantry as well because fewer models can attack at once. But you also get ragdolled by monsters or cavalry. I wouldn't really say one is better than the other, just swap to and from mount before battle depending on enemy army composition.

[Cacomistle]

Nguyên văn bởi JODEGAFUN:

Nguyên văn bởi rymeintrinseca:

Well, I know my Tyrion stopped getting traits after the 31st (including the default Great Warrior), because I defeated several additional LLs, got the notification about the trait, but it never made it to my trait list nor changed the relevant stats.

Is it possible that the traits with multiple levels count for more than one? Maybe if you add on the extra levels that would get me to 40.

No, because regen isn't a bottomless pit. It's capped at 75% of your starting HP.

Malekith on foot has some pretty big defensive disadvantages compared to Tyrion:

- Much lower HP (doesn't have Tyrion's +25% HP skill)
- Regen pool is therefore smaller by the same amount
- Significantly lower armour (looks like his max is ~126, compared to 161 for Tyrion)
- Significantly lower MD (I make the maximum 97, compared to Tyrion's 119 - and as I explained above, very high MD is important for a one man army as they will be flanked most of the time).

And because of the regen cap, this is not just a paper disadvantage - take all these elements together and you have a very big difference in survivability.

On the other hand, you are of course quite right that Malekith is still very survivable and has a lot more in his offensive arsenal. I'm sure he can basically match Tyrion in overall power, maybe a little ahead, maybe a little behind, I can't say for sure. For all practical purposes these characters are basically 'I win' buttons when maxed out.

Malekith must sit on his dragon, and he has one great advantage Tyrion never get, the DK has a blue armor which gives bloodsucking like a vamp, it is much faster regeneration than the normal regeneration, but work only if fight. You can combinate it with regeneration and you could not die. I wiped out Hellpit Lv 5 + army in garrison with several warpcanons and hordes of globadiers and gutterruners with Malekith alone. I had full hp as it ended. But my Malekith was actually a general i had spend my points for red and spelltree+ lightning strike and his special traits, not one for the yellow and he was not stoppable. Imagine i would put all points on the yellow, i think no army would stop him execpt 20+ stardragons with maxed out hereo ore a buffed battery of near 20 warpcanons.
But at least i think you could build several lords as one man army with this swort if you kicked out Isabella for regeneration ore have some other replenish of hp.
Good candidates are Louen (he has additional regeneration which stacks with regeneration) Kolek and Archaon, i think need no comment.
For the empire KF maybe. Azhag on his Vywer+ dead magic would be op too, grimgor should work too.
Mazdamundi and Hellebron have both regeneration as trait, with the blade they should be one man/women army, even mazadmundi does not have high MD/and MA he has an high hp pool.

And i stop here but could mention at least 10 others who would do one man armie with this blade.

Regen is capped and you'll reach the cap before dying with a ward save build. More regen doesn't make a difference unless its increasing the cap or something, and you can get it for killing isabella on anyone (except vlad and isabella obviously, butyl they both will have regen). Characters like mazdamundi won't eveb outperform generic lords, his melee defense is really low and his attack will only get to average numbers, compared to just say a saurus lord on a carnasaur who killed isabella will outperform him.

[Lampros]

Nguyên văn bởi rymeintrinseca:

Foot is more survivable against melee infantry as well because fewer models can attack at once. But you also get ragdolled by monsters or cavalry.

Yes, I think the latter reason why I think being on foot is overall not better or more survivable - as long as you can reach near max Ward save.

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

You can engage one and only one regiment of ranged units in melee. Every other unit will be free to shoot you on a dragon. They can't if you're on foot because they'll be obstructed.

I feel we are going in circles. I think end-game Malekith (or similar power dragon riders) near max Ward save will have so much survivability and damage that it won't matter if a few units will shoot at them - unless, of course, you've got a really range-centric army with tons of elite ranged units like Waywatchers.

I had Karl Franz with regen, Widowmaker, etc. on Deathclaw, and the only fight ranged troops bothered him was when I ran into two full WE stacks with at least literally about 20 Waywatchers and other ranged units. Karl Franz was down to like 80 percent health in seemingly 4-5 seconds on air. (I decided that this fight was unwinnable without massive casualties, reloaded, and then re-fought after bringing up another death stack to join Karl Franz's stack.)

[JX83]

Yeah, it won't matter in 99% of situations and you're better off fielding him on a dragon in most cases.

I want to point out that being ragdolled is both a pro and a con. Pro is the character is invincible when rag dolled (not on impact but when he's on his ass), con is being interrupted. It's counter intuitive, but being rag dolled actually helps a character survive.

@Lampros
I forgot to say, I'm surprised you didn't like DE's overall campaign. Militarily, they have one of the best missile infantry in the game (second only to WE that stacked too many of those buildings). Economically, well, they just have the best economy in the game.

[Lampros]

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

I want to point out that being ragdolled is both a pro and a con. Pro is the character is invincible when rag dolled (not on impact but when he's on his ass), con is being interrupted. It's counter intuitive, but being rag dolled actually helps a character survive.

Really? it is indeed counter-intuitive, but thanks for letting me know. I thought being knocked down is precisely when you get beat on worst.

Nguyên văn bởi JX83:

I forgot to say, I'm surprised you didn't like DE's overall campaign. Militarily, they have one of the best missile infantry in the game (second only to WE that stacked too many of those buildings). Economically, well, they just have the best economy in the game.

The main issue was that I couldn't impose Order at all at VH. Perhaps the massive malus from the Widowmaker made things impossible, but I was having trouble even before then. Even with 2 order buildings in each province, I was having a lot of rebellions; so I was spending most of my turns quelling rebellion. Loyalty was the second issue; in fact, my campaign ended when two of my level 40 Lords rebelled. At that point, it was not worth playing further, since the only other Lords I had were Malekith and Morathi (Malekith was also level 40 and Morathi was around 36-38, I think).