Wood Elves totally outgunned now?

[No Guts No Glory]

They were introduced as mainly shooty faction with focus on hiding and flanking but honestly their ranged units were pretty bad for shooty faction and now with HElfs getting Sisters of Avelorn, Shadow Walkers and Shadow Warriors, Wood Elves are really a joke. A bad one atop of it.

Sisters of Avelorn have superior stats and 20+ models along with magical,fire and AP dmg combo meaning they melt anything they look at. Compared to all Wood Elf archers its just seems ... wrong i guess? I dont really feel like playing shooty factions with Wood Elves (i never did but with these new units this problem is even more glaring than before)

Wood Elves either need new units, huge boost or make their archers 80 not 60 models.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

They were introduced as mainly shooty faction with focus on hiding and flanking but honestly their ranged units were pretty bad for shooty faction and now with HElfs getting Sisters of Avelorn, Shadow Walkers and Shadow Warriors, Wood Elves are really a joke. A bad one atop of it.

Sisters of Avelorn have superior stats and 20+ models along with magical,fire and AP dmg combo meaning they melt anything they look at. Compared to all Wood Elf archers its just seems ... wrong i guess? I dont really feel like playing shooty factions with Wood Elves (i never did but with these new units this problem is even more glaring than before)

Wood Elves either need new units, huge boost or make their archers 80 not 60 models.

Scouts are cheaper than shadow warriors. Waywatchers are still domineering as the best shooting unit in the game. The shooting deathball the HE are so fond of is incredibly weak to disruption and AOE. They pay a massive premium for only decent range because of the decent melee stats, resulting in them being undergunner for their cost. Waystalkers can chip away at models rather effectively too. Its not easy, its micro intensive, but hey, thats the wood elves lot in life!

[Kushko]

Sisters get close to Waywatchers but cant shoot 360 degs while on the move so Waywatchers are still a superior archer unit. As for Shadow walkers and shadow warriors, they are quite honestly a joke compared to Waywatchers. And lets not even get started on the massive damage buff wood elf archers get in the campaign once you get rolling.

[TheLuckyAce]

Originally posted by Kushko:

Sisters get close to Waywatchers but cant shoot 360 degs while on the move so Waywatchers are still a superior archer unit. As for Shadow walkers and shadow warriors, they are quite honestly a joke compared to Waywatchers. And lets not even get started on the massive damage buff wood elf archers get in the campaign once you get rolling.

Thats what I would say as well.
I've completed a Woodelv campaign not long Ago and now playing Alith Anar... Shadow Walkers are fine. Even lategame they are useable and get their Kills, but compared to a Woodelv army they are just a Tier below.

Woodys with around 20+ Sattlements all pumped into dmg buffs (or later 30-40+) outdamage everything on range... most fights the AI does not even get in range to scratch anything...

In MP it might be different, I have no clue about that. But in SP I would always take a Woody ranged Army above an High's but they have some other benefits.
Sisters for example can hold nice if they get flanked and meleed, they deal also ALOT of damage. But they cannot move and have a really limited cone of fire, while the Woodys can move all of their Units and fire while moving... so you can outkite nearlly 99% of the Enemy armys and there is close to no need for a frontline. While the High's need a decent frontline to stop their Archers from beeing outrunned.

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

Originally posted by Kushko:

Sisters get close to Waywatchers but cant shoot 360 degs while on the move so Waywatchers are still a superior archer unit. As for Shadow walkers and shadow warriors, they are quite honestly a joke compared to Waywatchers. And lets not even get started on the massive damage buff wood elf archers get in the campaign once you get rolling.

Thats what I would say as well.
I've completed a Woodelv campaign not long Ago and now playing Alith Anar... Shadow Walkers are fine. Even lategame they are useable and get their Kills, but compared to a Woodelv army they are just a Tier below.

Woodys with around 20+ Sattlements all pumped into dmg buffs (or later 30-40+) outdamage everything on range... most fights the AI does not even get in range to scratch anything...

In MP it might be different, I have no clue about that. But in SP I would always take a Woody ranged Army above an High's but they have some other benefits.
Sisters for example can hold nice if they get flanked and meleed, they deal also ALOT of damage. But they cannot move and have a really limited cone of fire, while the Woodys can move all of their Units and fire while moving... so you can outkite nearlly 99% of the Enemy armys and there is close to no need for a frontline. While the High's need a decent frontline to stop their Archers from beeing outrunned.

Helfs can provide VERY stable frontline along with very strong flanking units and archers you can massacre anything. Add Alariel and her healing + Forest Spirit units and you have helluva of army.

In MP you can get cut short on budget but in SP/COOP? Helfs > Welfs anyday.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

Thats what I would say as well.
I've completed a Woodelv campaign not long Ago and now playing Alith Anar... Shadow Walkers are fine. Even lategame they are useable and get their Kills, but compared to a Woodelv army they are just a Tier below.

Woodys with around 20+ Sattlements all pumped into dmg buffs (or later 30-40+) outdamage everything on range... most fights the AI does not even get in range to scratch anything...

In MP it might be different, I have no clue about that. But in SP I would always take a Woody ranged Army above an High's but they have some other benefits.
Sisters for example can hold nice if they get flanked and meleed, they deal also ALOT of damage. But they cannot move and have a really limited cone of fire, while the Woodys can move all of their Units and fire while moving... so you can outkite nearlly 99% of the Enemy armys and there is close to no need for a frontline. While the High's need a decent frontline to stop their Archers from beeing outrunned.

Helfs can provide VERY stable frontline along with very strong flanking units and archers you can massacre anything. Add Alariel and her healing + Forest Spirit units and you have helluva of army.

In MP you can get cut short on budget but in SP/COOP? Helfs > Welfs anyday.

Welfs have better army upgrades though, and can get sacrificial grounds to roid up their shooting a whole bunch. Plus they can stack lords/heroes with a range boost. Roided up waywatchers pulp basically anything anyone can throw at you. It's one of the few doomstacks in the game that isnt centered around giant monster spam really.

[Kaaz]

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

In MP you can get cut short on budget but in SP/COOP? Helfs > Welfs anyday.

eh wood elves still get a much better base of operations and MASSIVE boosts in campaign that basically turn them into a popup anywhere you own pseudo hordes

[TheLuckyAce]

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

Thats what I would say as well.
I've completed a Woodelv campaign not long Ago and now playing Alith Anar... Shadow Walkers are fine. Even lategame they are useable and get their Kills, but compared to a Woodelv army they are just a Tier below.

Woodys with around 20+ Sattlements all pumped into dmg buffs (or later 30-40+) outdamage everything on range... most fights the AI does not even get in range to scratch anything...

In MP it might be different, I have no clue about that. But in SP I would always take a Woody ranged Army above an High's but they have some other benefits.
Sisters for example can hold nice if they get flanked and meleed, they deal also ALOT of damage. But they cannot move and have a really limited cone of fire, while the Woodys can move all of their Units and fire while moving... so you can outkite nearlly 99% of the Enemy armys and there is close to no need for a frontline. While the High's need a decent frontline to stop their Archers from beeing outrunned.

Helfs can provide VERY stable frontline along with very strong flanking units and archers you can massacre anything. Add Alariel and her healing + Forest Spirit units and you have helluva of army.

In MP you can get cut short on budget but in SP/COOP? Helfs > Welfs anyday.

I've never said that High's are "worse" than Woodys, I just said that if I would build a pure range based army, I prefere Woodys everytime.

A balanced army, not require kiting and micro ALOT - High's are the better choice, thats clear.
But if you micro alot, build your army and lords around it... a mid to lategame Woody range army can beat every AI in the game easy as well.

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Helfs can provide VERY stable frontline along with very strong flanking units and archers you can massacre anything. Add Alariel and her healing + Forest Spirit units and you have helluva of army.

In MP you can get cut short on budget but in SP/COOP? Helfs > Welfs anyday.

Welfs have better army upgrades though, and can get sacrificial grounds to roid up their shooting a whole bunch. Plus they can stack lords/heroes with a range boost. Roided up waywatchers pulp basically anything anyone can throw at you. It's one of the few doomstacks in the game that isnt centered around giant monster spam really.

As i said i am coutning on playing with Alariele. Helfs have better magic access, all round army and even if everything else fails (unlikely) i can and will still chase you down with armored cav with spells that negate missile damage and healing on them. You cant outrun that. And loads of maps are really small for run 'n' gun playstyle. Miss those days back in ROME II and Attila where i could kite stuff around for days without getting cornered. Only thing i had to care was my horse archers ammo.

[Songbird]

Sisters of Avelorn VS Waystalkers

-Same price 1100 Gold

Pro Sisters:

25 more armour
+33% models = better health
Better in melee

Damage property:

magical = good against ethereal, counter one nehekara magic spell, abysmal against dwarves, get countered by lizardmen, empire and every other nation with access to the magic shield spell or items
flaming = counter regeneration and forest units, bad against dwarf heavy gunners and dragon knights and multiple LL

Pro Waystalkers:

50% more AP damage, slightly better regular
Faster
Stalk
360° Degree shooting
More range and ammo
Vanguard deployment
Better in woods

Damage property:

physical = hard countered by ethereal, bad against savage orcs, no easy way of getting resistance against it

So, Sisters of Avalorn are better in melee combat and tanking damage.

Waystalkers are better at ranged shooting.

Decide yourself which archer unit does its job better

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Helfs can provide VERY stable frontline along with very strong flanking units and archers you can massacre anything. Add Alariel and her healing + Forest Spirit units and you have helluva of army.

In MP you can get cut short on budget but in SP/COOP? Helfs > Welfs anyday.

I've never said that High's are "worse" than Woodys, I just said that if I would build a pure range based army, I prefere Woodys everytime.

A balanced army, not require kiting and micro ALOT - High's are the better choice, thats clear.
But if you micro alot, build your army and lords around it... a mid to lategame Woody range army can beat every AI in the game easy as well.

Well first thing first i never said that Helf are better in ranged only. Ranged is support for me and i would nevet build ranged only army tbh. If played as support part of the army and not main part of the army then SoA are better than Welf archers by far tbh.

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by Songbird:

Sisters of Avelorn VS Waystalkers

-Same price 1100 Gold

Pro Sisters:

25 more armour
+33% models = better health
Better in melee

Damage property:

magical = good against ethereal, counter one nehekara magic spell, abysmal against dwarves, get countered by lizardmen, empire and every other nation with access to the magic shield spell or items
flaming = counter regeneration and forest units, bad against dwarf heavy gunners and dragon knights and multiple LL

Pro Waystalkers:

50% more AP damage, slightly better regular
Faster
Stalk
360° Degree shooting
More range and ammo
Vanguard deployment
Better in woods

Damage property:

physical = hard countered by ethereal, bad against savage orcs, no easy way of getting resistance against it

So, Sisters of Avalorn are better in melee combat and tanking damage.

Waystalkers are better at ranged shooting.

Decide yourself which archer unit does its job better

Better in wood is hardly a pro given notorious problems swarming this Welf feature since their release ("Oy a tree is in my LoF?! FIREEEEE!")

Also less models is huge problem as DMG output is quite smaller and it gets even worse once you get hit by literally anything. 80 model unit loosing few models dont feel that much. But 60 model feels every dead model.

+10 range means almost nothing as it is not enough to get +1 volley against opponent.

[Songbird]

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Originally posted by TheLuckyAce:

I've never said that High's are "worse" than Woodys, I just said that if I would build a pure range based army, I prefere Woodys everytime.

A balanced army, not require kiting and micro ALOT - High's are the better choice, thats clear.
But if you micro alot, build your army and lords around it... a mid to lategame Woody range army can beat every AI in the game easy as well.

Well first thing first i never said that Helf are better in ranged only. Ranged is support for me and i would nevet build ranged only army tbh. If played as support part of the army and not main part of the army then SoA are better than Welf archers by far tbh.

HE losing in every tournament and WE being top pick since ME release... I don't think they are worse :)

Campaign is subjective and yes, the HE offer more ways to play the game which might be the reason they are more "fun" for you :)

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by Songbird:

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Well first thing first i never said that Helf are better in ranged only. Ranged is support for me and i would nevet build ranged only army tbh. If played as support part of the army and not main part of the army then SoA are better than Welf archers by far tbh.

HE losing in every tournament and WE being top pick since ME release... I don't think they are worse :)

Campaign is subjective and yes, the HE offer more ways to play the game which might be the reason they are more "fun" for you :)

We are not discussing "since ME release"

We are discussing "since Sisters of Avelorn release"

[Songbird]

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Originally posted by Songbird:

Sisters of Avelorn VS Waystalkers

-Same price 1100 Gold

Pro Sisters:

25 more armour
+33% models = better health
Better in melee

Damage property:

magical = good against ethereal, counter one nehekara magic spell, abysmal against dwarves, get countered by lizardmen, empire and every other nation with access to the magic shield spell or items
flaming = counter regeneration and forest units, bad against dwarf heavy gunners and dragon knights and multiple LL

Pro Waystalkers:

50% more AP damage, slightly better regular
Faster
Stalk
360° Degree shooting
More range and ammo
Vanguard deployment
Better in woods

Damage property:

physical = hard countered by ethereal, bad against savage orcs, no easy way of getting resistance against it

So, Sisters of Avalorn are better in melee combat and tanking damage.

Waystalkers are better at ranged shooting.

Decide yourself which archer unit does its job better

Better in wood is hardly a pro given notorious problems swarming this Welf feature since their release ("Oy a tree is in my LoF?! FIREEEEE!")

Sir what are you talking about? Forest fighting adds 20% melee defense and accuracy(+12 levels worth of upgrade).

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by Songbird:

Originally posted by No Guts No Glory:

Better in wood is hardly a pro given notorious problems swarming this Welf feature since their release ("Oy a tree is in my LoF?! FIREEEEE!")

Sir what are you talking about? Forest fighting adds 20% melee defense and accuracy(+12 levels worth of upgrade).

I am talking about game problems how units in forest are hitting trees instead of enemy despite accuracy of said unit as they dont see tree as "obstacle" in their LoF.