Are rat ogres useless? (question on ratling too)

[Napo]

I mean now that we have the doom flayers? Or do you still have a use for them?
Also, regarding the ratling guns, I have a hard time positionning those fellas to do some shooting when the map is flat, and even more when a siege ( when you're not cheesing the ai trough the door with it that is). Would you have any advices?
Cheers

[Wyvern]

Kinda depends, MP or Campaign?
In campaign rat ogres never really had too much of a niche, and hate to say it, but flayers dont have much of a niche either if you're just trying to try hard(not trying to say this is the only/right way to play, just saying that neither unit is the most optimal option).

Flayers are more mobile, tankier vs missiles/non-AP and stronger vs infantry, but on the other hand less efficient vs any sort of large target, and really cant lay down the quick burst of damage rat ogres can vs a single entity/cav. Less hp also means they die easier to AP potentially.

As for ratling guns, use them the same way you would any gun unit, leave gaps in your line for them to shoot through once lines meet, and they'll mulch basically everything, even more so with ikits buffs. In sieges the unit is honestly mostly worthless except for cheesing through holes in the walls/gates, or in the odd chance you can flank around and get a clear line of sight from the walls/down a street.

[Napo]

Thanks for your answer Wyvern, I was talking about the campaign. I find myself a bit frustrated, playing the ikit's vortex campaign and I find the battles really boring, I just let the shock vermin protect my gunners and my artillery smash everything (just saw a bastiladon get vaporised by a warplightning canon, it was awesome) and that's it, gg. At the end skavens are just low leadership dwarfs to me.

Does someone play them differently or have a specific army composition?
My curent one is:
Ikit on a doom wheel
5 halberd vermins,
4 normal ones,
1 censerbearer
1 doom flayer,
2 plague claw catapult,
one canon,
2 poison wind globadiers,
2 Ratling
2 jezails

[Napo]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Flayers are more mobile, tankier vs missiles/non-AP and stronger vs infantry, but on the other hand less efficient vs any sort of large target, and really cant lay down the quick burst of damage rat ogres can vs a single entity/cav. Less hp also means they die easier to AP potentially.

So you would rather have rat ogre than doom flayers?

[Orfin]

Rat ogres are bad on their own, they have no armor and no melee defense which means that they take damage very quckly. If you really want to make use of them, try to make them fighting among your meat shields. That way your meat shields will take damage and rat ogres will do a lot of damage while surviving much better.

What i would to advice is spamming Plagueclaw Catapults prior to any kind of other damage-dealing units. They are your best unit by far, get 5-7 of them and fill other slots with meat shields. You can of course bring some others like gun teams, rat ogres or whatever, but this will be suboptimal, espicially when it comes to sieges.

[Elias.Five]

Ratlings you have to leave gaps in your lines for or flank with them and fire into the sides of units to get the most out of them. You can try to put them on higher ground on some maps but thats very situational. I believe the ROR ratlings have stalk or concealment bombs, i cant remember which, so they are easier to flank with. But all up they are better than warpfire throwers atm.

Rat ogres arent useless IMO, they are good for the Skaven version of hammer and anvil, or as close as you can get with the ratty bois. Flayers are good for that too but they can get after back line units better. I have gotten some good use out of Ogres as back line defenders on my plague claws and Warplightnings, holding them behind to take on anything that gets behind my front line. If they dont take care of what ever gets back there they can hold until you get other units in to help.

So Neither is useless, just not useful all the time IMO.

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

I noticed that monstrous infantry are significantly better at pinning single monsters down and preventing them from running through your lines. Is this also true for Rat Ogres?

[Elias.Five]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

I noticed that monstrous infantry are significantly better at pinning single monsters down and preventing them from running through your lines. Is this also true for Rat Ogres?

Yep, they have good mass so bigger things cant push past them as easily

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Napo:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Flayers are more mobile, tankier vs missiles/non-AP and stronger vs infantry, but on the other hand less efficient vs any sort of large target, and really cant lay down the quick burst of damage rat ogres can vs a single entity/cav. Less hp also means they die easier to AP potentially.

So you would rather have rat ogre than doom flayers?

Depends. If I wanna run over infantry, I'd rather have doom flayers, if I want something to defend the backline/prevent big units from breaking through, ill have rat ogres.

Also, you can absolutely run non-shooting/wonky skaven builds. Mass doomflayer+doomwheel is hilarious as long as you bring 3-4 cannons or jezzails to kill enemy large. Mass plague monk or stormvermin is viable, especially with armor sundering effects like wither from lore of plague, death runners weeping blade or Queeks armor. Mass censer bearer is more expensive but also viable, especially with some poison support from lore of plague. Just bring some globadiers, hellpit abomination or guns to kill large targets and you're golden. I won't pretend theyre "optimal" builds, but they're fun and perfectly viable.

[Mactalon]

I've found that the Ogres do a better job of dishing out damage in combat than the flayers if they're in prolonged fighting. The cycle charging on the flayers is better but if you don't have time to micro then the RO's have always seemed more effective to me.

[Napo]

Thanks for your answers guys! I'll try your tips asap.

[Cpt. Obvious]

Ograts are underestimated by most. they actually are decent damage dealers and their charge is incredible. They can be useful in the begining and up to midgame.

On the contrary, flayers and doomwheels are generally drastically overated )) Nice looking not very effective in the endgame.

My endgame stacks consist of:
Warlord using bonebreaker
Warlock engineer
Plague priest
Asassin
4 sword&shield stormvermin
3 gutter runners poison
3 warplock jessails
3 warp lightning cannons
3 abominations

I'm NOT using halberds against cavalry because it is way more effective to counter them with gutter runners+abominations. not to mention shooting them ))

The one advice i can give about scavens is avoid using censerbearers. now these guys are total crap.

[Napo]

Originally posted by Outsider4N:

Ograts are underestimated by most. they actually are decent damage dealers and their charge is incredible. They can be useful in the begining and up to midgame.

On the contrary, flayers and doomwheels are generally drastically overated )) Nice looking not very effective in the endgame.

My endgame stacks consist of:
Warlord using bonebreaker
Warlock engineer
Plague priest
Asassin
4 sword&shield stormvermin
3 gutter runners poison
3 warplock jessails
3 warp lightning cannons
3 abominations

I'm NOT using halberds against cavalry because it is way more effective to counter them with gutter runners+abominations. not to mention shooting them ))

The one advice i can give about scavens is avoid using censerbearers. now these guys are total crap.

I always thought that gutter runners were absolutely pointless to take given the other missile infantry in the skaven roster, how do u use them? Also why do u take so much heroes/ spellcasters?

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by Napo:

Thanks for your answer Wyvern, I was talking about the campaign. I find myself a bit frustrated, playing the ikit's vortex campaign and I find the battles really boring, I just let the shock vermin protect my gunners and my artillery smash everything (just saw a bastiladon get vaporised by a warplightning canon, it was awesome) and that's it, gg. At the end skavens are just low leadership dwarfs to me.

Does someone play them differently or have a specific army composition?
My curent one is:
Ikit on a doom wheel
5 halberd vermins,
4 normal ones,
1 censerbearer
1 doom flayer,
2 plague claw catapult,
one canon,
2 poison wind globadiers,
2 Ratling
2 jezails

This was my Ikit doomstack

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1837900736

[Cpt. Obvious]

Originally posted by Napo:

I always thought that gutter runners were absolutely pointless to take given the other missile infantry in the skaven roster, how do u use them?

poison gutter runners are amasing support unit, they apply poison (damage and speed reduction) and they have second speed reduction ability, share net. they can kite 9/10 cavalry while you shoot them with arty. they have stealth and guerilla deployment.
the only thing they are really bad at is dealing damage to heavy armoured units, however you can reduce their armour with plague priest.

Also why do u take so much heroes/ spellcasters?

Engineer is an absolute addition to your arty, his buffs are insane
Plague priest reduces enemy armour and apply mass poison fo 55 seconds.
Later on both of them are pretty good melee fighters with proper equipment, however asassin is efficient fron the start but requires good micro.

everything above is about lategame. in the beginning i ran with this kind of stacks:
warlord
3 scavenslave slingers
3 catapults
3 clanrat spears with shields
10 clanrat swordsmen with shields ))

[Napo]

Isn't the technomage superior to the warlord? Thanks for all the info guys, can't wait to test it tonight