Do Lothern Sea Guard Make Spearmen and Archers Redundant

[Eversor That Coming]

I am currently playing a Loremasters of Hoeth campaign and now have access to Lothern Sea Guard with shields. This makes me wonder, do archers and spearmen still have any use or can I forget about them?

[Helidanofalliance]

spearmen are 120 while lothern are 90 or something

[dt Walter Robinson]

There is a bit of overlap, but I find that the LSG make better shielded archers than they do another type of spearmen unit.

The range is a bit shorter than reg archers, but I think overall it's worth the tradeoff in exchange for charge defence and shields.

[Eversor That Coming]

Ok, cool. So is it still worth taking some spearmen to put on the frontline?

[Björn]

archers are with more men and do more damage if you can keep them out of melee. LSG for me is my frontline with archers behind and 2 spearmen to keep flying units busy if they attack my archers or bolt thrower.

[Erikon]

Originally posted by Eversor That One Coming:

Ok, cool. So is it still worth taking some spearmen to put on the frontline?

No, you can safe take like 12 Sea guards, and fill the remaining slots with support, flying units or phoenix guards

[dt Walter Robinson]

I'd say overall reg spears are a better frontline than LSG, mostly because of the unit count.

Reg archers and LSG are the same unit count, so you wouldn't lose in that regard.

Their bows do the same damage, but LSG have a bit less ammo, so maybe archers win out slightly.

As I said there is a lot of overlap, but for their price and upkeep the spears can be really appealling as a frontline.

[APE ALLY]

Archers and spearmen are cheaper than seaguard.
Archers and spearmen have more men than seaguard.
A cost effective army should have all 3 components in them, with only seaguard your army get unessesary expensive and small army.

My advice is to have a frontline of a few spears, then have some archers for ranged and use lother seaguard as a reserve. If the spears fall the seaguard hold the line otherwise they stand back and fire.

[Tenshin51]

Like many other posted spearman are still decent. Making LSG as frontline or meatshield is not using there full potential due you can only get 3 or more volleys of arrow if their fighting as battle line that's negate their range ability. HE archers have more range than LSG. Spearman have more units and cheap.

Personally I use my LSG to defend my flank and protect my artillery and archers. Also I keep them as reserve if my frontline collapse. Putting them rear and flanks, you could utilize their range ability more.

[Hurricane]

Lsg shorter range than archers... archers a better ranged all round they out range other archers and take no fire cost less upkeep and you vet them earlier.

Spearmen are redudant pretty fast as lions and sword masters take over.

[Tsuyara]

LSG outperform spearmen in a 1v1 and the ammunition concerns are a lot less of an issue on LSG in my opinion, as even without they can still be useful, unlike archers which become useless.

I would say, if you have the money, you can just go LSG and forget about the others.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Tsuyara:

LSG outperform spearmen in a 1v1 and the ammunition concerns are a lot less of an issue on LSG in my opinion, as even without they can still be useful, unlike archers which become useless.

I would say, if you have the money, you can just go LSG and forget about the others.

Wrong...

Archers hardly run out of ammo... if they do the enemy is already dead.

Lsg are shorter range and even mid game cav can plow them when flanked. Big heavies destroy them.

Also when in melee they cant shoot... so best to take dedicated melee and ranged not hybrids.

They are still good to buff via tech tree though as they are in all the garrisons and help out

[Tsuyara]

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Originally posted by Tsuyara:

LSG outperform spearmen in a 1v1 and the ammunition concerns are a lot less of an issue on LSG in my opinion, as even without they can still be useful, unlike archers which become useless.

I would say, if you have the money, you can just go LSG and forget about the others.

Wrong...

Archers hardly run out of ammo... if they do the enemy is already dead.

Lsg are shorter range and even mid game cav can plow them when flanked. Big heavies destroy them.

Also when in melee they cant shoot... so best to take dedicated melee and ranged not hybrids.

They are still good to buff via tech tree though as they are in all the garrisons and help out

Don't say "wrong" if you can't point out what is wrong.
Do they not outperform spearmen in a 1v1? Or is it that ammunition is not less of an issue for LSG than it is for spearmen?
Archers barely have more ammo than LSG, so either both will have next to no ammo issue or both do. From my experience, long drawn out close fights certainly require a lot of it. Shorter/easer battles, it won't matter since you win/lose either way. And they certainly do outperform spearmen in a 1v1, i tested myself. And that is against a unit with extremely strong shields, negating most of their missile damage.

Sure LSG can be destroyed by certain units, but i can't think of a single unit that will destroy LSG, but fail to do it with archers even more easily and spearmen are hardly more resilient.

Actually, you can shoot in melee. Aside from that, it could be argued that dedicated melee have their place, but i really don't see the argument for dedicated ranged. LSG perform almost identically to archers in shooting, but are better against enemy archers, better against enemy flankers, can serve as frontline unit, etc.

[YaMe]

LSG give you flexibility they unchain you from spearmen/archer combo, but I would use them all in the same composition, if I have 5 archers I would replace 2-3 with sea guard and place them on side or back so not to be exposed, they fill this role as HE have some issues dealing with cavalry so it makes sense to retire some archers.

LSG can replace archers in a very aggressive army but you would need white lions/swordmasters, eagles/phoenix and cavalry.

[MeatPopsicle]

It's possible to have a 20 stack of just LSG and Eagle claws, the lord buffs especially ones from high Influence lords (60 points) can make them insanely powerful.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by MeatPopsicle:

It's possible to have a 20 stack of just LSG and Eagle claws, the lord buffs especially ones from high Influence lords (60 points) can make them insanely powerful.

Erm... no not insanely. Grail knights trample all over them i stomped 2 stacks of he with 1 stack of grails. The charge basically wipes them out even with charge resistance