Tomb Kings boring

[k-gerrits]

Don't rely on anything except free big guys. If you don't have any super boring. Slow, little variation in playing style. I get the trade off... Free units but you need to wait for some time to get better ones. But these are just ridiculously boring... First 30 something turns just stink. No fun in battle... Shame

[cb4n28]

Publicado originalmente por k-gerrits:

Don't rely on anything except free big guys. If you don't have any super boring. Slow, little variation in playing style. I get the trade off... Free units but you need to wait for some time to get better ones. But these are just ridiculously boring... First 30 something turns just stink. No fun in battle... Shame

You're boring

[funkmonster7]

I always struggle with money when playing TKs. How do you guys make that money? If I don't get Canopy Jars then I can't get items etc. If I get Canopy Jars I have no money to build buildings.

I tried playing Arkhan and man, it was difficult. The Bretonnians are almost impossible to beat when they have 2 stacks on top of the garrison and my units suck compared to theirs. (They do have a lot of Peasant Mobs but my units are almost all Peasant Mobs equivalents.)

It's worse when the AI employs Gotrek and Felix. I still won the battle and took the town but it was not a fun battle, just a damn slog.

[DecayWolf]

Publicado originalmente por funkmonster7:

I always struggle with money when playing TKs. How do you guys make that money? If I don't get Canopy Jars then I can't get items etc. If I get Canopy Jars I have no money to build buildings.

I tried playing Arkhan and man, it was difficult. The Bretonnians are almost impossible to beat when they have 2 stacks on top of the garrison and my units suck compared to theirs. (They do have a lot of Peasant Mobs but my units are almost all Peasant Mobs equivalents.)

It's worse when the AI employs Gotrek and Felix. I still won the battle and took the town but it was not a fun battle, just a damn slog.

Bretonnia won't have 2 armies if you rush em out, you're camping too much.

Canopic jars shall be saved to first unlock the Heralds of Empowered, that cost 1050 jars.
Then you'll want to purchase a new dynasty at least twice (800, then 1600), before even thinking about getting any item. Get canopic jars skill tree from heroes and lords, it helps.
IMO arkhan has better stuff to get from his skill tree.

In theory 1 canopic jar should worthy at least 62.5 gold, however late in game, in comparison how easy gold becomes and in relation to jars and their price for items and overall necessity for things... I'd say they are worthy well over 100 each.
But you cannot think about late game, when you're at early stage struggling for money. If you need money, then get money. I think the reward should be at least 1k+ gold, and you can do it... You'll get enough jars later.
Generally rule, try to get prioritize getting as many jars as possible as post battle reward, but don't shy away from getting gold when you need to.

They get money from the following.
1 Gold mines.
2 Trade agreement. Owning the araby coast + land of devishes + cobra pass + the great desert, was giving me over 800 income... It almost double my income when I got my trade agreement.

Your trade partner goal will be Luthor Harkon/VCoast. If you're close to get trade you can offer money to see if you get the deal, but I don't like this approach...
What I do is.
I declare war on whomever he's at war with, I ask if he wants trade agreement for me to join his wars... Some times it works and it's enough, if it is not enough... Then you'll need to either send an army or an agent... Agent being the most sensible solution, and keep harassing his enemies with agent actions, as you keep building relations.
If you're a quick expander, you may find VC necrach still alive and get a very easy trade agreement, but regardless always try to get VCoast trade deal.

3 - Raid, sack and raze are tools for extra resources.
Do sack and raze only when it makes sense, don't be an idiot.

4 - Focus on infra structure buildings early game.
If you build at very least that 50g at every region, it will soon start adding up. You can also focus on getting tech for construction decrease cost, commadment and build a necrotect specialized for building with a follower for extra building decrease cost, then have him running around building your kingdom.
Doing so, the income building will be even more desirable and will net up to 150 from each region. That does add up.

[James Howlette]

Idk, early game they can be pretty tricky, you don't get many meaty units or much income until youve taken a province or two.

However... considering the AI tends to play like a toddler in battles, it isn't too hard to win a few "heroic victories", get a few good conquests, and get them really rolling.

Like some other people said the main thing with them is pushing out early and playing agressively rather than turtling. Short of heroes and your legendary lord (and if you're playing Settra your warsphinx) literally everything you send into battle is 100% expendable so you can afford to go into risky fights.

[Cacomistle]

Publicado originalmente por funkmonster7:

I always struggle with money when playing TKs. How do you guys make that money? If I don't get Canopy Jars then I can't get items etc. If I get Canopy Jars I have no money to build buildings.

I tried playing Arkhan and man, it was difficult. The Bretonnians are almost impossible to beat when they have 2 stacks on top of the garrison and my units suck compared to theirs. (They do have a lot of Peasant Mobs but my units are almost all Peasant Mobs equivalents.)

It's worse when the AI employs Gotrek and Felix. I still won the battle and took the town but it was not a fun battle, just a damn slog.

If you're playing Arkhan you actually have really good units vs Brettonia early. Ai has no clue how to deal with direwolves before they get cav, and crypt ghouls easily win the front line engagement vs unarmored peasants. So the only threat you're looking at is I think either the garrisons or one of the Brettonian factions has a few knights of the realm. But if you just spam spears for all your free units they'll hold vs knights of the realm while you wipe out their entire army with direwolves.

Like seriously, I can't stress how good direwolves are vs early ai armies.

Also as DecayWolf said, you can kill them before they get 2 stacks and a garrison. Or just use the generalist cheese tactics you can use on any faction to get the ai to stop turtling (basically just put a weaker army near them and they'll push out and attack, and if you're not confident in getting the win put another army in ambush near your weaker stack).

[Dominic]

Snowballs
Other Factions dont snowball
Every Army costs an amount per turn,
That amount per turn increases arithmetically with each new unit, and geometrically with each new army.
The Bigger they get, the more expensive it gets to get big
Even if you conquered the entire map and maxed every province, and every upkeep skill, there is a finite size of your army

Tomb Kings Snowball.
There is no upkeep, arithmetic or geometric, every tomb king army is free, regardless of the number.
A single province can support an infinite number of tomb king armies.

Publicado originalmente por k-gerrits:

Don't rely on anything except free big guys. If you don't have any super boring. Slow, little variation in playing style. I get the trade off... Free units but you need to wait for some time to get better ones. But these are just ridiculously boring... First 30 something turns just stink. No fun in battle... Shame

I disagree, its a great deal of fun to deploy 1 tomb king and 19 units of spearmen, lose, and the next turn come back with, 1 tomb king, and 19 units of spearmen, and lose, and next turn come back with, 19 more units of spearmen, and this time, the exhausted remnants of the enemy army dies, and you move on to the next enemy, and the next, and the next.
And of course, Settra on a Sphinx helps.

[Hurricane]

How the fk are you recruiting 19 units in 1 turn?????

[DecayWolf]

Publicado originalmente por Hurricane:

How the fk are you recruiting 19 units in 1 turn?????

I suppose it's blue skill tree + usirian's god of underworld + tech + global, until reach 19 turn. takes several generals in one province. Why someone with so many generals would send one per time, and yet filled with cannon fodder, that I don't know.

I don't want to dispute his reasoning anyways, to much for me...

[protokevin]

I only got the game a few days ago and chose tomb kings as my first faction, have to say that I'm kind of loving them.

[Cacomistle]

Publicado originalmente por Dominic:

Snowballs
Other Factions dont snowball
Every Army costs an amount per turn,
That amount per turn increases arithmetically with each new unit, and geometrically with each new army.
The Bigger they get, the more expensive it gets to get big
Even if you conquered the entire map and maxed every province, and every upkeep skill, there is a finite size of your army

Tomb Kings Snowball.
There is no upkeep, arithmetic or geometric, every tomb king army is free, regardless of the number.
A single province can support an infinite number of tomb king armies.

Publicado originalmente por k-gerrits:

Don't rely on anything except free big guys. If you don't have any super boring. Slow, little variation in playing style. I get the trade off... Free units but you need to wait for some time to get better ones. But these are just ridiculously boring... First 30 something turns just stink. No fun in battle... Shame

I disagree, its a great deal of fun to deploy 1 tomb king and 19 units of spearmen, lose, and the next turn come back with, 1 tomb king, and 19 units of spearmen, and lose, and next turn come back with, 19 more units of spearmen, and this time, the exhausted remnants of the enemy army dies, and you move on to the next enemy, and the next, and the next.
And of course, Settra on a Sphinx helps.

An infinite number of tomb kings spearmen beats nothing.

Also snowball factions/characters/whatever as I've seen it in other games are factions that when they get ahead, its basically impossible to come back.

Let me just use an example. Imagine a pvp campaign, Settra vs dwarves. Settra gets going quickly, takes out the savage orcs, and moves on Arkhan. He's got 3 stacks turn 25, and dwarves are stuck in silver road.

Now imagine dwarves get a good battle, and push in on black crag. They take it, get another stack and push in on mount gunbad. Confed Zhufbar. And take the gold mine from red eye.

So now its turn 55 or so. Settra had probably upgraded to 6 mid tier stacks (significantly above his starting 100% tech rate do). Dwarves have just gotten the landmark in gunbad, walk over vampires for another gold mine, and now have 4 gold mines and a diamond mine. Barely even a snowball compared to what I attributed to Settra, don't even have the diamond mine lower down. Didn't do ♥♥♥♥ till turn 25. And thry can now afford 5 mid tier stacks that are all way better than Settras (thunderers are broken in campaign).

So they're about even if dwarves get stuck for 20 turns and start snowballing then. And the snowball affer taking black crag for dwarved is even easier than TK. Lets say instead dwarves started snowballing at the start. I've done that before on dwarves. If you do, you probably own the whole badlands and wiped out the vampires, and can probably afford like 7 stacks of lo gbeard thunderer.

That's not even including Brettonia, the actual best late game cause they have no supply lines and no army upkeep.

Now for some reason you guys have attributed snowballing with late game. Even though they're not the same thing at all (if you don't snowball you die before late game).

So lets talk late game. Its turn 100 and you've been snowballing all game. Dwarves are raking in 75k gold. They can probably afford legit 10 stacks. Tomb kings meanwhile probably reached 11 stacks. Wow big difference.

I'd rather be dwarves still, because honestly a two stack of thunderers and organ guns with 2-3 engineers and a few ironbreakers can probably wipe out the entire tomb kings faction. With 4 stacks, they'd still never even enter melee combat.

Just note, I picked dwarves because they're simple. Elves are more op in most people's opinions. My fastest woof elf campaign I started upgrading the tree on like turn 60 (after the upgrade being available for like 20 turns). I was making 60k on top of 60k razing once every 2-3 turns on top of wood elf upkeep reductions and all their armies being unkillable with all the weapon and missle strength. Think I had 8 armies, and considering tomb kings would have at most 3-6 t5 units there's 0 chance tomb kings could beat any of those wood elf armies 1v1.

That's another thing to remember, as tomb kings get more armies their average quality goes down. The best unit you can consistently put in armies is probably ushabti. Compare that to sisters of averlorn or ironbreakers or waywatchers.

In short, they're not a snowball faction. They're the exact opposite. A faction where you can miserably fail to snowball, and you'll still get multiple stacks of high tier units eventually.

In every other game, the way you people all describe them, they'd be described as the late game faction. That is not the same thing (and their late game isn't the best, probably Brettonias is but elven factions are all arguable too imo).

[DecayWolf]

Publicado originalmente por Cacomistle:

Publicado originalmente por Dominic:

Snowballs
Other Factions dont snowball
Every Army costs an amount per turn,
That amount per turn increases arithmetically with each new unit, and geometrically with each new army.
The Bigger they get, the more expensive it gets to get big
Even if you conquered the entire map and maxed every province, and every upkeep skill, there is a finite size of your army

Tomb Kings Snowball.
There is no upkeep, arithmetic or geometric, every tomb king army is free, regardless of the number.
A single province can support an infinite number of tomb king armies.




I disagree, its a great deal of fun to deploy 1 tomb king and 19 units of spearmen, lose, and the next turn come back with, 1 tomb king, and 19 units of spearmen, and lose, and next turn come back with, 19 more units of spearmen, and this time, the exhausted remnants of the enemy army dies, and you move on to the next enemy, and the next, and the next.
And of course, Settra on a Sphinx helps.

An infinite number of tomb kings spearmen beats nothing.

Also snowball factions/characters/whatever as I've seen it in other games are factions that when they get ahead, its basically impossible to come back.

Let me just use an example. Imagine a pvp campaign, Settra vs dwarves. Settra gets going quickly, takes out the savage orcs, and moves on Arkhan. He's got 3 stacks turn 25, and dwarves are stuck in silver road.

Now imagine dwarves get a good battle, and push in on black crag. They take it, get another stack and push in on mount gunbad. Confed Zhufbar. And take the gold mine from red eye.

So now its turn 55 or so. Settra had probably upgraded to 6 mid tier stacks (significantly above his starting 100% tech rate do). Dwarves have just gotten the landmark in gunbad, walk over vampires for another gold mine, and now have 4 gold mines and a diamond mine. Barely even a snowball compared to what I attributed to Settra, don't even have the diamond mine lower down. Didn't do ♥♥♥♥ till turn 25. And thry can now afford 5 mid tier stacks that are all way better than Settras (thunderers are broken in campaign).

So they're about even if dwarves get stuck for 20 turns and start snowballing then. And the snowball affer taking black crag for dwarved is even easier than TK. Lets say instead dwarves started snowballing at the start. I've done that before on dwarves. If you do, you probably own the whole badlands and wiped out the vampires, and can probably afford like 7 stacks of lo gbeard thunderer.

That's not even including Brettonia, the actual best late game cause they have no supply lines and no army upkeep.

Now for some reason you guys have attributed snowballing with late game. Even though they're not the same thing at all (if you don't snowball you die before late game).

So lets talk late game. Its turn 100 and you've been snowballing all game. Dwarves are raking in 75k gold. They can probably afford legit 10 stacks. Tomb kings meanwhile probably reached 11 stacks. Wow big difference.

I'd rather be dwarves still, because honestly a two stack of thunderers and organ guns with 2-3 engineers and a few ironbreakers can probably wipe out the entire tomb kings faction. With 4 stacks, they'd still never even enter melee combat.

Just note, I picked dwarves because they're simple. Elves are more op in most people's opinions. My fastest woof elf campaign I started upgrading the tree on like turn 60 (after the upgrade being available for like 20 turns). I was making 60k on top of 60k razing once every 2-3 turns on top of wood elf upkeep reductions and all their armies being unkillable with all the weapon and missle strength. Think I had 8 armies, and considering tomb kings would have at most 3-6 t5 units there's 0 chance tomb kings could beat any of those wood elf armies 1v1.

That's another thing to remember, as tomb kings get more armies their average quality goes down. The best unit you can consistently put in armies is probably ushabti. Compare that to sisters of averlorn or ironbreakers or waywatchers.

In short, they're not a snowball faction. They're the exact opposite. A faction where you can miserably fail to snowball, and you'll still get multiple stacks of high tier units eventually.

I think you over estimate a little TK's power.
By turn 100, If we're talking about a good expantionist and a person who would not research the infantry upgrades, until have unlocked all 6, and save the 1 turns (banners,heroes,proclamation) after unlocking a new dynasty when the -30% happens in order to get maximal efficiency.
Then this person would've unlocked 5 dynasties by then + The Heralds of Empowerment.

That's 7 armies.
Then you add book and about 2 new dynasties, because it takes 2.4k jars + 1050 from The Herals of Empowerment.

That's 10 armies at very best. However most people would more likely end at 4 - 6 range.
7 maybe.

I just also wanted to add 2 things about your argument, to counter his snowballing nosense.

Some factions can eventually reach max army recruitment per turn, being a lot easier than TK mechanics to reach more slots of recruitment.
It does not take long for upkeep become higher than recruitment value. Meaning if someone gets a army wiped, then he'll be able to effort a new one, having the exactly same effect of 'free' or 'doesn't matter.'

[Sn3z]

TK playstyle is interesting but I think could of been implemented better essentially they have bursts of aggressive campaign play, these are unlocked when army capacity's increase, so in theory you would be aggressive once you get the extra army's and play more defensively while your waiting.

[Dominic]

Publicado originalmente por Hurricane:

How the fk are you recruiting 19 units in 1 turn?????

It was a dramatisation rather than a recreation

****
Although the basic production is 9 units every 2 turns, before any units or skills.

[DecayWolf]

Publicado originalmente por Dominic:

Publicado originalmente por Hurricane:

How the fk are you recruiting 19 units in 1 turn?????

It was a dramatisation rather than a recreation

I wasn't 'exclusive' snowballing neither.

[Leyline]

Publicado originalmente por TVMAN:

Tomb Kings are the definition of a snowball faction. Sure you need to turtle for the first 20 turns or so until you get a second stack going, but once you've got statues and tomb guard they become a real powerhouse. It's definitely a slow burn though, and i can see how it's not for everyone.

Publicado originalmente por Wh♂♂par:

Russia's wars in a nutshell.

Oddly enough, they'll never be able to conduct that type of war of attrition ever again. Their population never really recovered after ww2, and to this day they actually have a much smaller population than the U.S. 146m vs. 327m.

well duh,
the soviet union was a wee bit more states than just russia.