Knights of the Realm Are Line Infantry

[yuzhonglu]

Except they're on horses for better charging and mobility. I mean, they've got 90 armor, their upkeep is reasonable (200), shielded, and anti-large. They don't even effect the peasant cap.

With those things you don't need infantry as Bretonnia. Just have armies of these knights. How do those units compare to other tier 3 or below line infantry of other factions? These units honestly feel broken.

I mean: they beat other large units (anti-large). They do fine in a stand-up fight against non halberd infantry because of their insane armor. Missiles do nothing to them *(armor and shielded). And they have the mobility to avoid halberds if necessary. They're literally hammers that are also anvils.

[zacharyb]

Wait until you get Grail Guardians they're even better, and they don't lose Vigor and are anti infantry.

[Wyvern]

KoTR are nothing like line infantry and shouldn't be used as such. They're shock cav meant to cycle charge. Sure you don't need infantry as Brettonia, but the closest infantry analogs are melee cav like Questing Knights and Grail Guardians. To begin with, comparing by tiers is a horrible way to look at things, since tiers in this game dont reflect unit quality(foot squires share tier with chosen, spoiler alert, the two are nowhere near comparable). By T3 standards, KoTR are somewhere between average and outright subaverage from a cavalry perspective alone. Even within their own faction, at T3, Questing Knights are stronger. Empire has Reiksguard, Greenskins Savage Orc Boar Boy Biggunz, Lizardmen have Cold One Knights, Vampire Counts Wood Elves have Wild Riders, etc and all of those units are significantly stronger than KoTR(Simply put, while nifty, their BvL does not compensate for raw combat stats, armor and AP found on a lot of the other units on the same tier).

For cost efficiency they're solid if compared to other 800-1000 gold units, but even then units like Cold One Knights are just better.

Then comparing them to line infantry. They have somewhere between 1000-3000 less hp than line infantry, this is a huge disadvantage. They also have far worse MD than most infantry, which is another issue. They also lack AP damage, which means their damage output vs armored targets is pretty bad. 90 Armor also isn't insane no matter how you cut it, it's decent, but isn't going to stop non-AP units from chewing through you over time the way a lot of empire cav(especially with tech+skills) can basically shrug off non-AP infantry. Similarly, while nice, bronze shields aren't about to make you immune to missile play. By T3 basically every faction has an infantry unit that's better for holding than KoTR

This isn't meant to be some bash of KoTR, they're a great unit for their price and can deliver great performance if microed correctly. But trying to use them as an infantry unit is just misuse and not going to make them perform all that effectively.

[Budoshi]

You always need infantry, just not as much with Bretonnia but a couple per armies at least 5-6 melee infantry units in your army, a mix of foot squire, pilgrim and halberds. 3-4 archers with poison arrows to help your infantry line stands a bit longer, and especially for dealing with those annoying missile cavalry, and you cant siege with only cavalry.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by Budoshi:

You always need infantry, just not as much with Bretonnia but a couple per armies at least 5-6 melee infantry units in your army, a mix of foot squire, pilgrim and halberds. 3-4 archers with poison arrows to help your infantry line stands a bit longer, and especially for dealing with those annoying missile cavalry, and you cant siege with only cavalry.

Na in the late game you can use pure Cavalry armies just fine as Bretonnia.

[yuzhonglu]

The problem is that stupid peasant cap. On certain lords, upkeep for KOTR is superlow so those lords get full armies of KOTRs. The problem with all those other cav units you mentioned is their upkeep is 3x that of KOTR. Reiksguard is T4 and has twice the upkeep of KOTR. Those Grail units (outside of the Fay) cost a gazillion coin in upkeep per turn.

Then there is an auxillary lord who carries everything else. But using KOTR as line infantry (after initial charge) is still damn cost-effective. They're arguably better than your other option (squires). Half of the KOTRs hold a line and the other half charges from behind.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

The problem is that stupid peasant cap. On certain lords, upkeep for KOTR is superlow so those lords get full armies of KOTRs. The problem with all those other cav units you mentioned is their upkeep is 3x that of KOTR. Reiksguard is T4 and has twice the upkeep of KOTR. Those Grail units (outside of the Fay) cost a gazillion coin in upkeep per turn.

Then there is an auxillary lord who carries everything else. But using KOTR as line infantry (after initial charge) is still damn cost-effective.

The Peasant Cap really isn't too much of a problem except for in the Early game. There is a Tech you can get that increases how much each settlement gives by 1 or something like that. You need to unlock the higher tier Vows to be able to afford Bretonnias higher tier Calvary.

[Budoshi]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Originally posted by Budoshi:

You always need infantry, just not as much with Bretonnia but a couple per armies at least 5-6 melee infantry units in your army, a mix of foot squire, pilgrim and halberds. 3-4 archers with poison arrows to help your infantry line stands a bit longer, and especially for dealing with those annoying missile cavalry, and you cant siege with only cavalry.

Na in the late game you can use pure Cavalry armies just fine as Bretonnia.

In the end you play however you want, but for me it doesnt matter which faction i use, i always like to mix my troops, and i dont only and always use the best of the best units on every army. thats just stupid and boring an drains you economy fast , mixing is more fun and realist , but thats just me.

i always mix units even use weaker units from time to time like spearmens and swordmens and such ,and still win battles, i mean come one this game isnt hard to begin with.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

The problem is that stupid peasant cap. On certain lords, upkeep for KOTR is superlow so those lords get full armies of KOTRs. The problem with all those other cav units you mentioned is their upkeep is 3x that of KOTR. Reiksguard is T4 and has twice the upkeep of KOTR. Those Grail units (outside of the Fay) cost a gazillion coin in upkeep per turn.

Then there is an auxillary lord who carries everything else. But using KOTR as line infantry (after initial charge) is still damn cost-effective. They're arguably better than your other option (squires). Half of the KOTRs hold a line and the other half charges from behind.

1)Questing Knights are far better as a raw holding option and literally share tiers with KoTR. If you wanna hammer and anvil with just cav, they're a far better option and barely cost more money.
2)Upkeep is nowhere near 3x for those units, even once supply lines start factoring in. Base upkeep for reiksguard is literally 49 gold more than KoTR. We're not talking 300 gold wolf riders vs 1700 gold blood knights here, it's all cav whose base cost is within ~200-300 gold of one another.
3)Reiksguard is absolutely not T4. They're only T4 if you're aquiring them via the special building in Altdorf. They don't even require a secondary structure anymore so they're stupid easy to get come T3.
4)Whether or not they're better at holding than foot squires is debatable, but foot squires aren't the holding option for Brettonia to begin with. If you want holding infantry you have polearms, spearmen or battle pilgrims.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by Budoshi:

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Na in the late game you can use pure Cavalry armies just fine as Bretonnia.

In the end you play however you want, but for me it doesnt matter which faction i use, i always like to mix my troops, and i dont only and always use the best of the best units on every army. thats just stupid and boring an drains you economy fast , mixing is more fun and realist , but thats just me.

i always mix units even use weaker units from time to time like spearmens and swordmens and such ,and still win battles, i mean come one this game isnt hard to begin with.

I was just refuting your point about still needing to use infantry as Bretonnia. Bretonnia can actually afford to have a lot of the best of the best units in their armies since they don't get an increase cost for each army they have. Plus when i'm able to create and afford armies like that the game is basically already won and is just about painting the map at that point. Plus not much fun in fighting a one-sided battle.

[yuzhonglu]

Originally posted by Wyvern:

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

The problem is that stupid peasant cap. On certain lords, upkeep for KOTR is superlow so those lords get full armies of KOTRs. The problem with all those other cav units you mentioned is their upkeep is 3x that of KOTR. Reiksguard is T4 and has twice the upkeep of KOTR. Those Grail units (outside of the Fay) cost a gazillion coin in upkeep per turn.

Then there is an auxillary lord who carries everything else. But using KOTR as line infantry (after initial charge) is still damn cost-effective. They're arguably better than your other option (squires). Half of the KOTRs hold a line and the other half charges from behind.

1)Questing Knights are far better as a raw holding option and literally share tiers with KoTR. If you wanna hammer and anvil with just cav, they're a far better option and barely cost more money.
2)Upkeep is nowhere near 3x for those units, even once supply lines start factoring in. Base upkeep for reiksguard is literally 49 gold more than KoTR. We're not talking 300 gold wolf riders vs 1700 gold blood knights here, it's all cav whose base cost is within ~200-300 gold of one another.
3)Reiksguard is absolutely not T4. They're only T4 if you're aquiring them via the special building in Altdorf. They don't even require a secondary structure anymore so they're stupid easy to get come T3.
4)Whether or not they're better at holding than foot squires is debatable, but foot squires aren't the holding option for Brettonia to begin with. If you want holding infantry you have polearms, spearmen or battle pilgrims.

No. KOTR with certain lords is like 200 upkeep. Questing Knights, which is what I actually want, is 600-700 upkeep. Don't know why.

But since I can't get Questing Knights due to upkeep, I'm running KOTRs.

In the meantime Reiksguard are 400 upkeep. Are you getting roughly the same numbers?

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

1)Questing Knights are far better as a raw holding option and literally share tiers with KoTR. If you wanna hammer and anvil with just cav, they're a far better option and barely cost more money.
2)Upkeep is nowhere near 3x for those units, even once supply lines start factoring in. Base upkeep for reiksguard is literally 49 gold more than KoTR. We're not talking 300 gold wolf riders vs 1700 gold blood knights here, it's all cav whose base cost is within ~200-300 gold of one another.
3)Reiksguard is absolutely not T4. They're only T4 if you're aquiring them via the special building in Altdorf. They don't even require a secondary structure anymore so they're stupid easy to get come T3.
4)Whether or not they're better at holding than foot squires is debatable, but foot squires aren't the holding option for Brettonia to begin with. If you want holding infantry you have polearms, spearmen or battle pilgrims.

No. KOTR with certain lords is like 200 upkeep. Questing Knights, which is what I actually want, is 600-700 upkeep. Don't know why.

But since I can't get Questing Knights due to upkeep, I'm running KOTRs.

In the meantime Reiksguard are 400 upkeep. Are you getting roughly the same numbers?

You have to unlock Vows to reduce the upkeep of other Calvary units.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

Originally posted by Wyvern:

1)Questing Knights are far better as a raw holding option and literally share tiers with KoTR. If you wanna hammer and anvil with just cav, they're a far better option and barely cost more money.
2)Upkeep is nowhere near 3x for those units, even once supply lines start factoring in. Base upkeep for reiksguard is literally 49 gold more than KoTR. We're not talking 300 gold wolf riders vs 1700 gold blood knights here, it's all cav whose base cost is within ~200-300 gold of one another.
3)Reiksguard is absolutely not T4. They're only T4 if you're aquiring them via the special building in Altdorf. They don't even require a secondary structure anymore so they're stupid easy to get come T3.
4)Whether or not they're better at holding than foot squires is debatable, but foot squires aren't the holding option for Brettonia to begin with. If you want holding infantry you have polearms, spearmen or battle pilgrims.

No. KOTR with certain lords is like 200 upkeep. Questing Knights, which is what I actually want, is 600-700 upkeep. Don't know why.

But since I can't get Questing Knights due to upkeep, I'm running KOTRs.

In the meantime Reiksguard are 400 upkeep. Are you getting roughly the same numbers?

Questing Knights are high upkeep because you lack the questing vow i guess.

As for upkeep numbers, reiksguard upkeep is 287 as opposed to the KoTR's 238. Lord skills, difficulty, army penalties etc might drive these numbers up/down, but the base upkeep is near identical.

[yuzhonglu]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

No. KOTR with certain lords is like 200 upkeep. Questing Knights, which is what I actually want, is 600-700 upkeep. Don't know why.

But since I can't get Questing Knights due to upkeep, I'm running KOTRs.

In the meantime Reiksguard are 400 upkeep. Are you getting roughly the same numbers?

You have to unlock Vows to reduce the upkeep of other Calvary units.

Those vows require a gazillion chivalry points. I'm only on turn 30.

[yuzhonglu]

Ohhhhhhhh. There's that section in the character screen where you can pledge.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I am a fool.

[Old Dirty Bingo Caller]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

No. KOTR with certain lords is like 200 upkeep. Questing Knights, which is what I actually want, is 600-700 upkeep. Don't know why.

But since I can't get Questing Knights due to upkeep, I'm running KOTRs.

In the meantime Reiksguard are 400 upkeep. Are you getting roughly the same numbers?

You have to unlock Vows to reduce the upkeep of other Calvary units.

Lol