Just watched a LegendOfTotalWar video start to finish...

[funkmonster7]

... and his strategy revolved around derping the AI to a complete standstill.

I watched snippets of his playing and thought he sucked, but this ... what the actual ****.

I'm all in for CA to improve the AI just to trash this goon of a player's 'strategy', if you can even call it that.

This guy sent Empire Knights to Ikit Claw, stuck the shock cavs in there so of course they got routed. Then he sent Wulfhart over to let loose a fireball which misses and hits his own routing units. And he calls Empire Knights a crap unit. I pretty much muted the audio from there on and just watched the next 10 mins on how he manages to rout the entire Skaven army.

Which was actually just firing what little ammunition he has in his army at the AI that are exploited into being absolute fodder with no real purpose.

[Malkavian]

Personally, i don't approve of cheese tactics, and i don't understand this justification of cheese by saying that you are playing on legendary/very hard. Then simply don't play on legendary/very hard, otherwise what is the point?

As for the legend, i find his campaigns rather dull and predictable, as they offer very little in terms of entertainment. Watching him field armies of stegadons, or sisters of avelorn is simply not fun to watch. His disaster campaigns though, are quite fun as they have the element of randomness. So watching him deal with those is entertaining, even if it involves cheese.

[Potion Seller]

More importantly who cares... he just does the most efficient thing he can in battles. wastes enemy ammo with lords/heroes, putting artillery in a spot where towers cant shoot it so they can actually be effective in a siege... corner camping.. confusing the AI by other means.. yeah it's cheesy but how does that affect you in any way? it's a single player game. Clearly he enjoys confusing the AI and breaking the game, some people like to play like that. Im not saying im one of them but what Legend or any other youtuber does has no affect on how i play my total war games.

[Major Moolah]

In a Top 5 Rich Factions video, Legend placed Lothern at number one spot.

This is because he kept stacking those Mages that boost the income for buildings in region and tax rate in the Lothern province. He literally could not fit any more in. So yes, cheese is absolutely what he does.

I do not like that.

Then again, he makes no excuses about being the cheese king so whether or not you like it depends on how entertaining you find him

[Cacomistle]

引用自 Malkavian：

Personally, i don't approve of cheese tactics, and i don't understand this justification of cheese by saying that you are playing on legendary/very hard. Then simply don't play on legendary/very hard, otherwise what is the point?

As for the legend, i find his campaigns rather dull and predictable, as they offer very little in terms of entertainment. Watching him field armies of stegadons, or sisters of avelorn is simply not fun to watch. His disaster campaigns though, are quite fun as they have the element of randomness. So watching him deal with those is entertaining, even if it involves cheese.

Why do cheese tactics need your approval? Its a single player game where the tactics the player uses affect literally nobody but themselves.

Tell me, what's the point of playing easy and using inferior tactics? What's the point of playing normally even. Whatever your answer is, its the same answer for cheesing legendary unless the point of playing video games to you is to feel like you're not cheesing.

Seriously, the number of people who try to turn single player video games into a "right vs wrong" is staggering. Just word your post as "I don't like cheesing". That's all you mean anyways.

[valky]

that was/is one hell of a nice read :P
People shouldn't necessarily be judged, by the way they are trying to accomplish things. Facing impossible odds - corner camping...if it gives me the win I desire, outweirding the AI with cheap troops to reduce the AI's combat potential - aye

Most 'cheesy' tactics were proven to be quite effective in history and am quite sure, that nothing, that is actually described as 'cheese' wasn't at least used once in a real battle.

While reading this, one very weird example came to mind...so, let's assume one does clear all the shooter from the wall with one single big flyer .. Hiroshima comes to mind.
yeah my mind and I ain't always in yin-yang

(still prefer Zardar for his really common approach to things...but LoTW and his 'save my sh*t' vids are always a nice watch)

edit: btw...the AI is _NOT_ cheating, it get buffs/debuffs ..but it doesn't pull troops out of thin air, with no building available to actually recruit the unit (Shogun 2). That is a cheat....

I don't like the word 'cheat' in general, specially if used with 'AI'. Find yourself a decent programmer and ask him about how to get a proper AI working - he would maybe laugh at you, laugh at you even more and maybe give you an answer.
It's the same with the so-called RNG - there is NO such thing possible currently. Everything is predictable as it gets. (I think there is, but thats molecular science and am soo not good at it ^^)

All we do is feed a machine a 1 and a 0 .. and give it rules, how to decide between them.

...

[76561197988918266]

引用自 Malkavian：

Personally, i don't approve of cheese tactics, and i don't understand this justification of cheese by saying that you are playing on legendary/very hard. Then simply don't play on legendary/very hard, otherwise what is the point?

As for the legend, i find his campaigns rather dull and predictable, as they offer very little in terms of entertainment. Watching him field armies of stegadons, or sisters of avelorn is simply not fun to watch. His disaster campaigns though, are quite fun as they have the element of randomness. So watching him deal with those is entertaining, even if it involves cheese.

It's justified by the difficulty being artificial(AI doesn't get smarter; it gets stat buff).

[Cacomistle]

Btw just to clarify something, LegendOfTotalWar does not cheese. To quote from urban dictionary "A cheese strategy is simply a high risk/high reward tactic which aims to win a game with little strategic effort, and relies on the failure of the opponent to properly react.".

Spamming sisters is not high risk. It beats everything. Spamming stegadons is not high risk, it beats everything. And every strategy relies on the failure of an opponent to react, because you're playing against an opponent that will always fail to react properly. What LegendOfTotalWar does is he uses optimal strategies. And using optimal strategies vs a weak opponent isn't fun to a lot of people. Like I think lightning strike is optimal, but its ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ boring to use cause the ai just can't beat you if you don't fight 20v40.

LegendOfTotalWar is more like some guy taking steroids so he can win pick up basketball games. He uses strategies that are overkill, not high risk high reward strategies.

Its just semantics, but I know people use the word cheese just to make it sound worse. But its honestly not possible to cheese an ai, it can't be high risk when you're fighting an opponent that will never react properly. Cheese tactics are pvp strategies, and there's a bigger reason why the word describes pvp. Because nobody actually gives a ♥♥♥♥ if you cheese an ai, and I don't fully understand why people pretend they do (my theory is it makes you sound more skilled if you say "I would never cheese").

Seriously though, you're not better at the game than LegendOfTotalWar because you refuse to use optimal strategies. Being better than him literally doesn't even matter because he's playing campaign. Playing optimally does not need justification. Just don't' do it if its not fun. Its even simpler than black and white, there's just nothing that requires justification even there.

[Raider Deci]

On legendary you need to use optimal strategies. You will have fewer armies than the AI and they will replenish faster. You simply cant sit there and take uneccesary casaulties. So if that involves some cheese, so be it.

[𝒦ℒℬ]

引用自 Gentle Giant：

引用自 The Warmongering Khan：

Exploiting the AI is not playing the game well. It just proves you need to use cheep tricks that a 5 year old wouldn't fall for to win.

Except it is.
Or rather, what you call an exploit is a fundamentally flawed, useless, word to use in this context.
The game does not recognize what an exploit is. The win condition never mentions or defines exploits.

There are only two things you need to consider:
What you can do and what you can't do.

You can order units to move. So you do that.
You can order units to attack. You do that.
You can't remove or add terrain features to the battlefield. So you don't.
You can't call in reinforcements on the other side of the campaign map. So you don't.

There is never any in-between. Games are binary, and so are their rules.
Words like exploit have no meaning in a rational gamer's vocabulary.

LOL
Oh boy.

[Coldhands]

We're mad about how some guy plays a video game in single player now?

[valky]

引用自 Coldhands：

We're mad about how some guy plays a video game in single player now?

That's what I've gathered so far :) aye

[now no one cares about previous guy XYZ, who beats the game with stacks of 10+ dragons, cause that ain't cheese - or so others presumed]

edit: usually spelling

[Cacomistle]

引用自 Coldhands：

We're mad about how some guy plays a video game in single player now?

Well the OP changed his mind. But there are still posts that seem mad about cheesing in general. So it would be about some people who play video games in single player, not just some guy.

To be fair, if it were still about LegendOfTotalWar and not just the general concept of cheesing, the guy is a public figure. Its only technically single player when he's got hundreds of people watching him.

[Heru Ra Ha]

WoW TW has been a franchise with so many entries and the AI has always been bad. LoTW shows that and it is up to CA to change that not him. But yeah lets be mad about him cause if you support him and what he does we could end up with a better game.

You know it would be nice from players to actually acknowledge that and keep asking devs why AI can still be cheesed the very ♥♥♥♥♥♥ same way as years ago.

[kekkuli]

引用自 valky：

Most 'cheesy' tactics were proven to be quite effective in history and am quite sure, that nothing, that is actually described as 'cheese' wasn't at least used once in a real battle.

Yeah i heard sending your general forwards to drain the ammunition from your enemies has been used throughout the ages in warfare. Don't even get me started about corner camping!

[Waking]

Corner camping was used in every Total War from what I recall. Single entity small units with lots of Hp are only typical for Warhammer. You can literally place your general in front of tower and not even move him, and tower will hit him 1-2 times in 10 minutes. Bad programming.

Wasting ammo is mostly viable when you attack, and you usually have to put your lord/hero on a very smaller mount to avoid damage (bigger hitbox), loosing an advantage of a dragon for example. CA would only need to add Ai scripts for priority targeting, but they don't care.