New empire mechanics make their campaign unplayable coop

[Ketamarine]

Anyone tried the new empire campaign mechanics yet? I think they are super over-done and make the empire less viable than before. Having to balance fealty and getting massive penalties for fighting other imperial factions makes no sense to me at all.

The typical way that you gain power early game is by uniting your faction through both confederation AND some wars. Now it seems like as soon as you go to war with one province, and you have the -8 to stability or whatever it is called, it all just falls apart and you are in civil war within 10 turns.

Also, this mechanic makes literally zero sense in coop. I am playing with my noob friend as Karl Franz, and me as Gelt. There is literally no way that I could have kept the stability bar up. I don't have enough prestige to keep from going to war with the provinces in the bizarre text adventure prompts, so I ended up with 3 wars I didn't want with provinces that are no where near me (gelt starts south of reikland in Pfeildorf).

Also Gelt's start is objectively worse than Karl Franz as his starting city has way less slots that Altdorf. (and he is closer to vamps, although they seem a bit less aggressive than in my last empire campaign).. not sure what they were thinking there...

I think these mechanics were not well though out and particularly in coop.

Anyone have any tips or thoughts here?

[Kapika96]

You don't have to fight wars against the other Empire provinces. Just fight Bretonnia, the Border Princes, the Vampire Counts or the Greenskins instead. Plenty of choices for expansion still.

Going to war with provinces in events was never an issue for me. There was only one that actually resulted in a war for me, and I didn't lose any stability because of it, so I don't see why you're having a problem there.

And why does it matter if Gelt's start is worse? The game would be pretty dull if all lords have an exactly equal start (which would surely be impossible anyway). Having some variety and more challenging starts is a good thing!

[Garatgh Deloi]

The optimal play seems to be to not wage any wars against other empire factions, as Karl Franz i recommend going after Marienburg and then Bretonnia (or perhaps vampire counts if you choose to ally with Bretonnia).

While Gelt should focus on nearby greenskin factions first and then perhaps vampires. Should be noted that Gelt can take the mountain settlements without penalties (His faction "the Golden Order" has good habitability in mountains, the normal empire faction does not).

If Empire factions have enough fealty they won't try to secede (But its a rather high amount, there is a tech that improves how low fealty can get before they try to secede). Keep authority up (+1 at all times, recommended +4 before accepting a confederation so that you have +1 afterwards). Make sure you have enough prestige to do events (At least 2000) and not spend it all on improving relations (Seems pointless since its fealty that decides if they try to secede). Having some money loose might also be a good idea if you get a event and want to save the prestige (Since some of them can be done with money).

If you try to wage war to take the Empire you might end up losing a lot of Imperial authority and the penalties related to that are quite severe. So think twice before you start a civil war.

[Wh♂♂par]

You can go West, South(-West), East (as Gelt) and have so many possibilities now to not fight Swordsmen vs Swordsmen.

[Erikkustrife]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

You don't have to fight wars against the other Empire provinces. Just fight Bretonnia, the Border Princes, the Vampire Counts or the Greenskins instead. Plenty of choices for expansion still.

Going to war with provinces in events was never an issue for me. There was only one that actually resulted in a war for me, and I didn't lose any stability because of it, so I don't see why you're having a problem there.

And why does it matter if Gelt's start is worse? The game would be pretty dull if all lords have an exactly equal start (which would surely be impossible anyway). Having some variety and more challenging starts is a good thing!

This guy is crazy. Gelts start is better, you get to wage war agaisnt dawi and greenskins.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

improving relations (pointless since its fealty that decides if they try to secede).

Although every +50 to relations does increase fealty by 1.

Still not really worth it unless it's to push them over the edge required to confederate though.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Although every +50 to relations does increase fealty by 1.

Still not really worth it unless it's to push them over the edge required to confederate though.

I did not know that. Useful info. Thank you.

[Mactalon]

Playing a VH co-op Empire campaign, it's tricky but it's huge fun and the Empire is super fantastic now.

It took a little while to get used to managing Fealty and diplomacy in co-op but once we did it worked out very well. We've split the Empire between us almost evenly and there's been a lot of give and take.

Franz by far has the economic advantage but also comes under attack a lot more so early on I helped him out as Gelt, mostly just holding my own province and Karak Hirn (Gelt can take mountain holds unlike the normal Empire units too, super helpful). I gave a lot of military support while Franz gave me financial support to help build up.

The trick is same as single-player though, managing a few wars against non-Empire factions so you can keep building up prestige so that you have at least 1-2000 banked so you can respond to the Fealty events. We did have a couple of civil wars but we put them down and confederated in others strategically.

Using the relations is actually the opposite of useless and is one of the key factors in co-op Empire for ensuring that you can each pick which provinces you want to confederate. In co-op you share Fealty from the events but you don't share it for the relations value.

E.g. As Gelt I was taking Wissenland to help expand, therefore I used my surplus prestige to massively improve relations with them, ultimately giving me 3 extra Fealty points with them that Franz didn't have. So when it hit 10 Fealty, the next time it was my turn I got the confederation event and it didn't happen with Franz.

The only two things I don't like about the new Empire mechanics so far are that you can't make alliances with the provinces now, and it doesn't make a lot of sense that not all of the Runefangs are magic weapons, they really should be.
Otherwise, it's fantastic.

[Ketamarine]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

The optimal play seems to be to not wage any wars against other empire factions, as Karl Franz i recommend going after Marienburg and then Bretonnia (or perhaps vampire counts if you choose to ally with Bretonnia).

While Gelt should focus on nearby greenskin factions first and then perhaps vampires. Should be noted that Gelt can take the mountain settlements without penalties (His faction "the Golden Order" has good habitability in mountains, the normal empire faction does not).

If Empire factions have enough fealty they won't try to secede (But its a rather high amount, there is a tech that improves how low fealty can get before they try to secede). Keep authority up (+1 at all times, recommended +4 before accepting a confederation so that you have +1 afterwards). Make sure you have enough prestige to do events (At least 2000) and not spend it all on improving relations (Seems pointless since its fealty that decides if they try to secede). Having some money loose might also be a good idea if you get a event and want to save the prestige (Since some of them can be done with money).

If you try to wage war to take the Empire you might end up losing a lot of Imperial authority and the penalties related to that are quite severe. So think twice before you start a civil war.

That seems like an extremely thin line to walk, even on easier campaigns. The empire has always had a tough start, but now you are basically walking a tightrope...

[Ketamarine]

Originally posted by Erikkustrife:

Originally posted by Kapika96:

You don't have to fight wars against the other Empire provinces. Just fight Bretonnia, the Border Princes, the Vampire Counts or the Greenskins instead. Plenty of choices for expansion still.

Going to war with provinces in events was never an issue for me. There was only one that actually resulted in a war for me, and I didn't lose any stability because of it, so I don't see why you're having a problem there.

And why does it matter if Gelt's start is worse? The game would be pretty dull if all lords have an exactly equal start (which would surely be impossible anyway). Having some variety and more challenging starts is a good thing!

This guy is crazy. Gelts start is better, you get to wage war agaisnt dawi and greenskins.

Vampires are not an option for empire, even with Gelt early game until you get arch lectors, warrior priests, flagellants and some magic damage in other armies. They did move the bright wizard to a level three building, but that is still very expensive.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by Ketamarine:

Vampires are not an option for empire, even with Gelt early game until you get arch lectors, warrior priests, flagellants and some magic damage in other armies. They did move the bright wizard to a level three building, but that is still very expensive.

Why are vampires not an option? They only have melee, use a mass of crossbowmen to focus down their strongest units and then the rest is chaff.

Oh, and I can confirm that provinces trying to secede and declaring war in events does not lose you any imperial authority. So you're free to then go and conquer their cities and expand via war still. You shouldn't start wars with other Empire provinces, but when they do start you can (and should) conquer all of their cities!

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Ketamarine:

Vampires are not an option for empire, even with Gelt early game until you get arch lectors, warrior priests, flagellants and some magic damage in other armies. They did move the bright wizard to a level three building, but that is still very expensive.

Vampires are always a option for the empire. Easiest way to handle them early game (in my humble opinion) is to just focus down their lords and heroes with ranged units and see their armies crumble.

[Xajmai]

Originally posted by Ketamarine:

Originally posted by Erikkustrife:

This guy is crazy. Gelts start is better, you get to wage war agaisnt dawi and greenskins.

Vampires are not an option for empire, even with Gelt early game until you get arch lectors, warrior priests, flagellants and some magic damage in other armies. They did move the bright wizard to a level three building, but that is still very expensive.

Ummmmm what? Also how can you get -8 stability??? I thought the system was foolproof

[RCMidas]

Originally posted by Xajmai:

Also how can you get -8 stability??? I thought the system was foolproof

Sounds like they are actively declaring war on other Elector Counts out of habit. Look at the complaint again: "as soon as you go to war with one province" it says. That doesn't strike me as trying to prevent a secession by force. At best that strikes me as getting into a military alliance with someone prone to declaring war on the Empire Provinces (the surrounding dwarves and Bretonnians) or more likely just going for the conquest route on them from the get-go.

Which is a clear case of stupidity in action. You CONQUER Marienburg and the surrounding mountains. The rest of the Empire, as something you are sworn to protect and uphold, must UNIFY with you.

[Ketamarine]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Originally posted by Xajmai:

Also how can you get -8 stability??? I thought the system was foolproof

Sounds like they are actively declaring war on other Elector Counts out of habit. Look at the complaint again: "as soon as you go to war with one province" it says. That doesn't strike me as trying to prevent a secession by force. At best that strikes me as getting into a military alliance with someone prone to declaring war on the Empire Provinces (the surrounding dwarves and Bretonnians) or more likely just going for the conquest route on them from the get-go.

Which is a clear case of stupidity in action. You CONQUER Marienburg and the surrounding mountains. The rest of the Empire, as something you are sworn to protect and uphold, must UNIFY with you.

I was at war with three different empire factions, two because of the events and one that I declared war on. It's not clear anywhere in the game that you get a penalty for declaring war on any of the provinces. And it's not clear in any of the tool tips that the penalty is only there for wars of aggression.

so if that is in fact the case, then the game should do a better job of explaining it.

I'm not a fan of the choose your own adventure game being layered over what is effectively a war simulator. Nor am I a fan of unexplained mechanics in these types of games.

[RCMidas]

As soon as you start a game as the Empire, you get a popup explaining the new Authority and Fealty system. That popup has more information that you can click on to read and LEARN. The Authority segment at the top of the screen lists both how you can gain and lose Authority when you hover over it - such as "Declared war on Elector Count".

It is clear. You were impatient. You were punished for it. It is fair.

Now that you know better, you can go back and try again. Try to have fun and use your eyes to read the information that is presented in the game.