Corsairs vs Witch Elves vs Bleakswords...

[Hexagoros]

After getting to around 100 turns within my Dark Elf campaign, I'm having a hard time figuring why I would ever use Witch Elves or Bleakswords.

Consider that Corsairs have 80 armor, Witch Elves none, and Bleakswords a mere 30.

Compared to Bleakswords, Corsairs more than make up for their lack of a shield over the Bleakswords, since they have more than twice the amount of armor against all forms of incoming physical damage. On top of this, Corsairs have a bonus against infantry, meaning they'll deal considerably more damage to 'most' other enemies compared to Bleakswords - since most enemies are infantry size or smaller. All of this comes at only a marginally higher cost for the Corsairs.

While Witch Elves do very decent damage with a nice poison effect, but again Corsair armor is more reliable than the Witch Elves' ability to dodge, and more or less evens out with the Witch Elf ward save, meaning Corsairs will deal decent damage, and typically take much less damage than their Witch Elf counterparts. Yet...Witch Elves cost more, and take 2 turns to create...

So, for the purpose of the campaign game, do Corsairs more or less make both Witch Elves and Bleakswords obsolete?

[Empiro]

Bleakswords are a tier lower so it's to be somewhat expected they'd be worse. They do have shields though, so against lots of arrows the shield might make up for the lower armor, but agree that the Corsairs are better in most cases (also more expensive).

The Witch Elves get a few more things -- don't discount the poison. Defensively they're much weaker but they do have physical resistence of 20% so that helps. They have Murderous Mastery, which is better than what most Dark Elves have. They're also much faster so once that kicks in, they'll quickly rout the enemies and then chase them down.

I do agree that because the Witch Elves are 2 turns, I'm not using them at all, and they still don't seem like they're better than Corsairs in most cases.

[Hexagoros]

Yeah, I'm just a little surprised that Bleakswords are basically rendered obsolete so quickly and for such a low 'upgrade' price, and I guess I was just expecting 'more' from the Witch Elves.

Or maybe Corsairs are just a bit over-tuned for their cost?

[Kaia]

As I have literally just posted the dark elf guide...

You wouldn't. Bleakswords are quantifiably worse for dark elves than any other options.

You kill things with darkshards. The purpose of your melee line is to allow your darkshards to do that. You've got killing covered. Spears have higher defense, the same armor and charge defense vs large.

Corsairs are better at holding the melee fight (except against large...) but no shield. So OTHER darkshards shred them and thus you don't use corsairs against other dark elves.

And eventually you just swap them all out for black guard because executioners are high-tier bleakswords - redundant because darkshards are you killers. You just need to keep them alive long enough to do it and blackguard are better at that.

[Kaia]

Witch Elves have a use but its micro-intensive. You use them to peel slower high value units away. Attack them, enrage them, run away cackling while they chase you and your friends shoot them in the back.

Its just that its a lot of work when you could've shot them in the front with MOAR DARKSHARDS.

[Hexagoros]

Originally posted by Kaia:

And eventually you just swap them all out for black guard because executioners are high-tier bleakswords - redundant because darkshards are you killers. You just need to keep them alive long enough to do it and blackguard are better at that.

Yeeeah, but for Role-Play purposes, I would just never feel right fielding a full front line of Black Guard.

Same as in Napoleon Total War, a full army of Imperial Guard just felt silly.

Obviously multiplayer is different, you use what's meta, but the campaign has a definite role play aspect to it, and Black Guard are not front-line regulars, they're elites.

[Kaia]

Eh. For a given value of elites. Malekith is trying to make himself the fifth chaos god, im sure he can scare up a few thousand black guard (who are his bodyguards, lets remember its not like they have anyone ELSE to serve) for that kind of endeavour. Its really a 'leave it all out on the field' proposition.

I mean it happens late. You need two high tier buildings, lots of money and two recruitment turns to get them.

You can get by with spears. As mentioned, melee infantry are not the killers of the dark elf army (which is very much in keeping with their fluff. Repeater crossbows are brutally effective.) it just really reduces your margain for error and forces you to use a lot more wizards.

[megae777]

I get that Darkshards are really good ranged units and the most powerful in the DE army, but I just like the use a BIT more melee units simply because High Elves also use a lot of ranged weaponry units. I feel like I might as well just play HE if I want a lot of ranged combat. Witches seem like a good flanking unit but I do agree that they are very micro intensive. Still, just two units should do the trick.

[jgtogi]

Yes but Corsairs are tier 2 units while the other units mentioned are tier 1. Witch Elves are specialists and are shock infantry. You can't compare Corsairs to Witch Elves in the slightest. In all honesty Black Guard and Executioners make Corsairs obsolete. The handbow/sword Corsairs still are really good against slow infantry. But then again those units are tier 3. So the units are finely balanced. Although personally I would like to see witch elves upkeep and cost reduced slightly.

[Oxid3]

Witch elves enrage what they are fighting so if you can get them onto an enemy lord or high value target then they can’t get away and you can goon them. Very useful though 2 turn recruitment is annoying early on when you need to move around a lot.

[Shandor]

Witchelves missing the Dmg of the Tabletop version. But all in all they are better then corsairs.
With a Hag on Cauldron with them, some research aso. They got a very good Wardsave and make the enemy insane so they ignore commands.

But as i said.. they miss dmg. Sure im aware they cant one hit almost every other unit they meet on the battlefield in a Total War Game. But still. Its a huge step from "Oh there are some Swordmasters of Hoeth.. lets kill them all with one strike, overrun into Silverhelmets and kill them all too with one attack.." and "we need 3 minutes to kill those clanrats and lose 20% of our Soldiers"

[Nichtswisser]

Witchelves are etremely useful. You just need to use them right. First of all they are not meant to be a frontline unit. They have two things which make them stand out. First they are way faster than other infantry units so you can get around and flank much faster or chase down infantry units routing or archers with them. The second is the rampage effect they inflict. That ability makes enemy units go on rampage which means they will not run away until they are broken. With that you can lock down enemy heros/lords, cav units, or flying units which would otherwise just move around and cause trouble for you.

For example keeping 2 units of Witchelves in the back basically means that you can protect your ranged units from pretty much anything that might goes for them and keep whatever it is looked down until it's dealt with. I also often use them to go around and attack enemy ranged units from the side or back. They are fast enough for that and they do not go crazy like the better cav units you have available which makes them more reliable.

[pin]

or...get shades with greatswords + lord with that ridiculous -15% shades upkeep, +5 melee atk and +30 armor random upgrade at lv 10

HELLO 80 armor 40+ melee armor piercing AND 150 ranged armor piercing shades. Attack and defense are both in the high 40s if not inching into 50s too. give 6 of them armor piercing/frenzy banner and watch them wipe the map....

[Scar]

You're forgetting witch elves have dodge, which allows them to dodge missle fire, damn man read the unit stats and dont be lazy before posting.

few units in game have dodge that makes up for low armour, which makes them harder to hit and to kill, also like the trailer you see them running through forests (trees protect elves), not rocket science

[Hexagoros]

Originally posted by Trickster:

You're forgetting witch elves have dodge, which allows them to dodge missle fire, damn man read the unit stats and dont be lazy before posting.

few units in game have dodge that makes up for low armour, which makes them harder to hit and to kill, also like the trailer you see them running through forests (trees protect elves), not rocket science

Forget? It's like the first thing I mentioned in my comparison...

[Sargeist]

I was hoping witch elves would be a high damage dealing glass cannon kind of unit but I haven't been that impressed with them so far.

Their poison effect might be really useful in multiplayer though