Dark Elves a little... poorly designed?

[Green]

I am 111 turns in into a Dark Elves campaign and I must say boy are Dark Elf units boring and similar.

- Dark riders of any type: I get it, light cavalry isn't supposed to be a versatile unit. They are good for chasing off routing enemies. HOWEVER, what's the *** point of having a version with shields then? When will I ever use these guys to charge into archers directly, and even then, heavy cavalry (like Silver Helms) have shields because they might have 2-3 engagements until the battle ends. The relatively high MD value together with the armor Silver Helms have makes a further enhancement by shields actually useful. But these guys? Light cavalry is good ONLY for chasing units and getting a routing charge on an enemy. I don't get why they should waste a roster slot with the shield version. Sure, in marginal cases you will charge into archers, but the additional 2-3 riders you lose by not bringing shields normally don't make a difference.
I like the version with crossbows. It allows you to get on the rear of an enemy unit more quickly and AP is good to bring in additional damage. E.g. you're fighting Chosen, these guys are actually pretty useful. Could maybe use Fire whist Moving (with an accuracy penalty or something to not become OP) but I think they are not bad.

- BleakSwords: These guys are just garbage. In Naggarond, replenishment is so slow early on that losing 60%+ of one of these units to Marauders with Great Weapons (!) means that you either have to re-recruit them or wait 5-6 turns. Both options sound bad with your early game economy. I think they would actually fare well in a 1v1 with Empire Swordsmen, the problem is that all tier1 units in TWW2 are super strong. High Elf Spearmen are insane, Saurus probably eat these guys for breakfast (haven't tested). Skaven obviously lose but you know... Skaven are Skaven.

- Black Ark Corsairs: These guys are the BIGGEST let-down of the entire Dark Elf roster. I had such great hopes for these guys. Since the Dark Elf tier 1 units are below their High Elf counterpart (with the exception of Darkshards with shields, more on that later), I expected these guys to be your generic melee frontliners. My conclusion is that they are able to beat some tier 1-2 troops easily. While High Elf spearmen stand their ground even against better opponents (e.g. Black Guard for a while), these guys with their pathetic 28 MD are unable to have any sustain in combat. Basically mid-to-late game you never want these guys in an army, yet Black Arks offer these as your primary frontliners.

Also, what the point of having them with handbows? A hybrid unit that is good at nothing. Alright.

- Shades: These also make me very angry: WHY do we have 3 different versions of them? Normal, Dual Weapons (!) and Great Weapons. When would I ever want these guys to charge into a unit with high armor? They are skirmishers. Good for taking out warmachines and shooting a little. I would never want these guys to get a rear charge when I could do it with more efficient units (hell, even with Dark Riders), like Black Guard or Cold Ones.

But as I said, having 3 versions of them feels like being cheated on army variety. We basically have 4 skirmishing units so far (3x varieties of Shades and the Handbow Corsairs). They are all very similar and in no circumstance is one of them SIGNIFICANTLY more advantageous over the other.

"But mom, Shades have Stalk and Corsairs don't!"
Stalk is a good mechanic but let's not pretend that it differentiates these units further. It does add some use, yes, but still, these 4 units are very similar in nature.

- Witch Elves: bad all around: high melee attack but no survivability, they melt to artillery/archer fire and the debuff they provide isn't significant enough. I could accept them being a tier2 infantry that takes 1 turn to recruit, but tier 3 AND 2 turns to recruit? Deep disappointment.

- Harpies: wow, ANOTHER skirmishing unit! "But mom, these can fly so they serve a different role than the others!" No, not really.

- Khainite Assassin: average in melee without buffs, I expected this guy to have potential at range. Again, I was disappointed. The meagre 70 range means that you have to do all sorts of maneuvers to position him so that he will shoot the unit you want and not shoot your troops.

- Murderous Prowess: I haven't had a single battle yet where it was a close thing and then Murderous Prowess kicked in and let me win the fight. Most fights are decided already by the time you get this mechanic. Currently this mechanic is underpowered/useless.

Tactic I'm thinking of running currently with Dark Elves:

- Frontline of 5-6x Darkshards with Shields (these guys are great btw and perhaps a little OP)
- Backline of Har Ganeth Executioners/Black Guard (protected on the front by the shields). I would have loved to make it work with Corsairs but it seems that they simply don't have enough sustain (my guess: because of the poor MD value).
- 2x Bolt Throwers

- Some Pikemen to guard the flanks and 2-3 Monstrous units.

I think this can be a viable army. Sadly, it requires a tier5 unit to be viable and even then it's extremely high maintenance.


Thoughts?

[TheBear]

Bleakswords guys, will devastate any unit with a spear.
But beyond that they are useless yes lol.

[Green]

I started varying the units I play a little and I should say I won quite a few battles. The main problem seems to be:

1) the fact that Helves outrange me means my army will ALWAYS suffer losses of at least 25% even if I win.

2) the AI seems to love to use units which make having a frontline useless. Example army: 2x Tiranoc chariot, 3x Flame Phoenixes, 1x Silver Helms, 2x Reavers, 3x Sea Guard (shields), 2x Archers.

Sea Guard are a pain to deal with. If you send your Black Guard into them... You get charged by Phoenixes, Lords, Chariots and whatnot. Sure, these units might not be strong individually, but take them together with some Bolt Thrower fire and it means your Black Guard won't be at full HP in the first place.

Your Cold Ones can do something to them but can probably at best trade 1 for 1 because of the spears and you might not want that. In the meantime, you have a whole army of chariots, reavers and Phoenixes charging your rear and warmachines (I actually manage to protect my warmachines but at the cost of keeping 1-2 units behind).

By the way, camping doesn't work either since the Eagle Claw has higher range.

I CAN win, but please tell me how you do win without getting heavy (25%+ losses). High Elves have range, the better cavalry (because of lack of Rampage AND having Fire on the Move on the Reavers). Heck, even the Reaper Bolt Thrower is weaker than the counterpart.

Overall, every unit in the Delf army has a disadvantage. You CAN of course outplay the AI since he has some implemented moves that he always will do (e.g. cavalry on the flanks). But to me it seems that it's the DE, not the HE who got the short end of the stick.

Also, I should stress more how bad the Cold Ones are: having a cavalry with a lower unit count to start with AND with a mechanic that makes them super bad means that when they go rampage you are essentially playing with x units less.

[Meow | Boeschner]

I actually think DE are pretty strong, considering that darkshards with shields are probably all around the best skirmishers in the game. Just form a line of bleakswords to protect them from infantry and use witchelves to tie down high-value targets for focus fire. Darkshards are AP, wich makes them far more effective than most other skirmishers.

[Green]

Meow | Boeschner eredeti hozzászólása:

I actually think DE are pretty strong, considering that darkshards with shields are probably all around the best skirmishers in the game. Just form a line of bleakswords to protect them from infantry and use witchelves to tie down high-value targets for focus fire. Darkshards are AP, wich makes them far more effective than most other skirmishers.

Ok. I seem not to grasp how they work then. I win often in SP but always with large losses (fought mostly High Elves so far though).

Any advice about how to play against superior range?

What does your frontline look like?

What guards your flanks? (Surely not Black Guard since they get decimated by arrow fire or Bolt Throwers)

What is a typical 20 stack army?

[Budoshi]

use harpies to harass enemy mages or archers. same with witch elves, and keep them in the rear because enemie archer will always go for them first ..its annoying.as for the rest..well shades are pretty much ♥♥♥♥ all around by my experience . so is the light cavalry

[Jerroser]

Green eredeti hozzászólása:

I started varying the units I play a little and I should say I won quite a few battles. The main problem seems to be:

1) the fact that Helves outrange me means my army will ALWAYS suffer losses of at least 25% even if I win.

2) the AI seems to love to use units which make having a frontline useless. Example army: 2x Tiranoc chariot, 3x Flame Phoenixes, 1x Silver Helms, 2x Reavers, 3x Sea Guard (shields), 2x Archers.

Sea Guard are a pain to deal with. If you send your Black Guard into them... You get charged by Phoenixes, Lords, Chariots and whatnot. Sure, these units might not be strong individually, but take them together with some Bolt Thrower fire and it means your Black Guard won't be at full HP in the first place.

Your Cold Ones can do something to them but can probably at best trade 1 for 1 because of the spears and you might not want that. In the meantime, you have a whole army of chariots, reavers and Phoenixes charging your rear and warmachines (I actually manage to protect my warmachines but at the cost of keeping 1-2 units behind).

By the way, camping doesn't work either since the Eagle Claw has higher range.

I CAN win, but please tell me how you do win without getting heavy (25%+ losses). High Elves have range, the better cavalry (because of lack of Rampage AND having Fire on the Move on the Reavers). Heck, even the Reaper Bolt Thrower is weaker than the counterpart.

Overall, every unit in the Delf army has a disadvantage. You CAN of course outplay the AI since he has some implemented moves that he always will do (e.g. cavalry on the flanks). But to me it seems that it's the DE, not the HE who got the short end of the stick.

Also, I should stress more how bad the Cold Ones are: having a cavalry with a lower unit count to start with AND with a mechanic that makes them super bad means that when they go rampage you are essentially playing with x units less.

When it comes to dealing with the High Elves range the most cost free method of dealing with them is Darkshards with Shields since although they don't outrange the enemey they are more resistent to arrow fire as well as using Dark Elf Bolt thrower on muli shot ammo which.

The Sea Guard I would try to treat like a mid-tier speaman unit with a ranged attack, can be dealt with by standard anti infantry units like Executioners and Witch Elves (but I would recommend using something else to draw their fire if possible).

When I fight as Dark Elves (in Campaign) I make most of my armies have a core of 4 Dreadspears and 4 Darkshards that will form the main battle line and try to make them take the brunt of the enemies inital attack. Then depending of course on what I'm up against send in the other units to either flank or attack through this main line.

Things like the Black Guard, Witch Elves and Executioners are best left behind this main line and then send it specifically to deal with that they are best suited against.

[Budoshi]

Green eredeti hozzászólása:

Meow | Boeschner eredeti hozzászólása:

I actually think DE are pretty strong, considering that darkshards with shields are probably all around the best skirmishers in the game. Just form a line of bleakswords to protect them from infantry and use witchelves to tie down high-value targets for focus fire. Darkshards are AP, wich makes them far more effective than most other skirmishers.

Ok. I seem not to grasp how they work then. I win often in SP but always with large losses (fought mostly High Elves so far though).

Any advice about how to play against superior range?

What does your frontline look like?

What guards your flanks? (Surely not Black Guard since they get decimated by arrow fire or Bolt Throwers)

What is a typical 20 stack army?

i know you didnt ask me this but here is how i make my DE armies:
i do ok with dark elves, what i got mostly is 4 bleakswords, 4 spears, 4 darkshards, 1 witchelves,at least 1 hero units,one seige, 2 cavalry either light or heavy, fill the rest with anything monster or more cavalry., shades or 2 handers.

i play on normal tho but this is how i build my armies in this game and won most battle.

[Jerroser]

Green eredeti hozzászólása:

Meow | Boeschner eredeti hozzászólása:

I actually think DE are pretty strong, considering that darkshards with shields are probably all around the best skirmishers in the game. Just form a line of bleakswords to protect them from infantry and use witchelves to tie down high-value targets for focus fire. Darkshards are AP, wich makes them far more effective than most other skirmishers.

Ok. I seem not to grasp how they work then. I win often in SP but always with large losses (fought mostly High Elves so far though).

Any advice about how to play against superior range?

What does your frontline look like?

What guards your flanks? (Surely not Black Guard since they get decimated by arrow fire or Bolt Throwers)

What is a typical 20 stack army?

I found that the Black Arc corsairs worked well as flank guards since they are a bit more flexible and come with their own minor resistance to missile fire (although not as good as proper shielded units) or Cold One Knight can also so the job.

[Gom]

I think you're playing Dark Elf wrong here. It's always about attack, attack, and more attack for these guys. I made the same mistake of playing them like I did with H'elves, having defensive frontline backed up by range with some flanking manuever. Doesn't really work for them.

Instead you have some of the most offensive roster in the game. Make the first blood, shake them with speedy melee/ranged units, units that shoot while running, short range but powerful darkshards, break their line with Witchelves, etc. Pop murderous prowess on THEIR blood, win even more.

After realizing this, they became my favorite faction in the whole game so far.

[Morgengrat]

Man, every DE unit is designed with a purpose of not being a carry by it's own. In army they all have their roles and this Total War is the most balanced after Shogun 2 I'd say

[Aenarion]

B4ndoGor4 eredeti hozzászólása:

HE archers and HE archers (light armour) seriousy what's the point If I can just recruit Lothern Sea Guard.

The archers shoot further and are about a third cheaper - or two-thirds cheaper with Tyrion.

I actually have less use for spearmen. If you can manage to keep archers out of CQC, which you usually can, they'll do better than sea guard. But spearman will pretty much always do worse than sea guard due to their lack of missiles.

[Meow | Boeschner]

Green eredeti hozzászólása:

Meow | Boeschner eredeti hozzászólása:

I actually think DE are pretty strong, considering that darkshards with shields are probably all around the best skirmishers in the game. Just form a line of bleakswords to protect them from infantry and use witchelves to tie down high-value targets for focus fire. Darkshards are AP, wich makes them far more effective than most other skirmishers.

Ok. I seem not to grasp how they work then. I win often in SP but always with large losses (fought mostly High Elves so far though).

Any advice about how to play against superior range?

What does your frontline look like?

What guards your flanks? (Surely not Black Guard since they get decimated by arrow fire or Bolt Throwers)

What is a typical 20 stack army?

I usually bring about 5-6 Darkshards, 6 bleakswords, 1 Hydra 2-3 spear/halberd units, 1-2 bolt throwers and 1 sorceress fire/dark. I then form a front line of bleakswords and position my darkshards behind them. i position my spear/halberd units (spearmen or blackguard) in the backline near my darkshards, to protect them if neccessary, or use them as reserve. Then i put my hydra on the flank. If the enemy approaches you, shoot them with your darkshards and use Vortex/Wind spells (the AI likes to blob up) on their approach. If you are outranged, rush your bleakswords towards them, and keep your spearmen/halberds and darkshards in the back to focus fire high value targets or enemy skirmishers. The AI really likes to blob up their skirmishers, so you can easily deal with them using vortex spells. Use the Hydra's breath attack to attack enemy melee troops from the flank, once they are engaged with your front line.
You should also try giving morathi a shot cause she has some abilities that greatly improve army regeneration. My lvl 21 Morathi heals 1/2 stack per turn.

[Gom]

Green eredeti hozzászólása:

Meow | Boeschner eredeti hozzászólása:

I actually think DE are pretty strong, considering that darkshards with shields are probably all around the best skirmishers in the game. Just form a line of bleakswords to protect them from infantry and use witchelves to tie down high-value targets for focus fire. Darkshards are AP, wich makes them far more effective than most other skirmishers.

Ok. I seem not to grasp how they work then. I win often in SP but always with large losses (fought mostly High Elves so far though).

Any advice about how to play against superior range?

What does your frontline look like?

What guards your flanks? (Surely not Black Guard since they get decimated by arrow fire or Bolt Throwers)

What is a typical 20 stack army?

Against long range army, just rush them. More archers = less frontline so they break easily, while you can have ranged units that can melee just as well(shades, corsairs, repeater dark riders, etc). Tank the arrows with Hydra(tankiest monster in the game), or more affordable Bleakswords early on. Pop merderous prowess as fast as possible this way, and finish them.

For frontline I use different combination of units depending on the opponent. I love having 1~2 hydras to tank arrows, initial charge etc as they're extremely resilient(heroes can do that early on). Corsairs vs light armored factions like Skaven, Beastmen, Greenskin etc, Executioner/Black Guard vs heavy armor/monsters. Mix in at least 1 witch elves to hold down key enemy while focus firing.

As for flanks, I use 2 Shades backed up by 1 Black Gaurd. Shades will slaughter any units both from afar and in melee. Their only weakness is cav/monster charge so Black Guard takes care of that.

[Empiro]

Green eredeti hozzászólása:

I started varying the units I play a little and I should say I won quite a few battles. The main problem seems to be:

1) the fact that Helves outrange me means my army will ALWAYS suffer losses of at least 25% even if I win.

If their army is a 20-stack versus your 20-stack, then that's not bad at all. I'm assuming that 25% of your units aren't completely eliminated. You can replenish a good amount of that immediately too.

2) the AI seems to love to use units which make having a frontline useless. Example army: 2x Tiranoc chariot, 3x Flame Phoenixes, 1x Silver Helms, 2x Reavers, 3x Sea Guard (shields), 2x Archers.

Sea Guard are a pain to deal with. If you send your Black Guard into them... You get charged by Phoenixes, Lords, Chariots and whatnot. Sure, these units might not be strong individually, but take them together with some Bolt Thrower fire and it means your Black Guard won't be at full HP in the first place.

Your Cold Ones can do something to them but can probably at best trade 1 for 1 because of the spears and you might not want that. In the meantime, you have a whole army of chariots, reavers and Phoenixes charging your rear and warmachines (I actually manage to protect my warmachines but at the cost of keeping 1-2 units behind).

By the way, camping doesn't work either since the Eagle Claw has higher range.

Black Guard are slow and anti-large, so of course it's not efficient to send them to fight archers. They'll stop chariots, phoenixes and cavalry cold though.

Corsairs are a lot faster and have decent armor. They work pretty well. Try it sometime. You'll take losses but take them down quickly as well.

Dark Shards work pretty well if you push in your line. Just make sure they don't get caught up in melee.

I CAN win, but please tell me how you do win without getting heavy (25%+ losses). High Elves have range, the better cavalry (because of lack of Rampage AND having Fire on the Move on the Reavers). Heck, even the Reaper Bolt Thrower is weaker than the counterpart.

Overall, every unit in the Delf army has a disadvantage. You CAN of course outplay the AI since he has some implemented moves that he always will do (e.g. cavalry on the flanks). But to me it seems that it's the DE, not the HE who got the short end of the stick.

Also, I should stress more how bad the Cold Ones are: having a cavalry with a lower unit count to start with AND with a mechanic that makes them super bad means that when they go rampage you are essentially playing with x units less.

HE archers have range and defense, but they don't have AP. Your Dark Shards can chop down their dragons, cavalry, chariots, and swordmasters, but they are only a moderate threat to your similar units. Take them down with your bolt throwers. Hydras are also great for this, because of their armor, scaly skin, and the fact that the AI doesn't focus fire that much.

Cold Ones are risky to use, agreed. However, in a straight on charge, they can probably take on Dragon Princes because of their anti-large and AP damage.

The AI is also poor at protecting their artillery. Hide a unit of dark riders in vanguard, send in a dragon, or even use harpies, which are built for this.

After the battle, take stock of which of their units got the most kills. In the next battle, take those out first.

[Lord Potassium]

So right now my current roster with maleketh is him with 2 dragon buddys that just fly in and break ♥♥♥♥, an assassin with 4 GW shades. Missles with DE are broken. Shades make it worse because they can easily do hand to hand. 4 units slaughtered 2 chaos troll units ( ithink it was them. Big chaos monster.) I feel like the assassin fits that build. and the 4 BG because they do not break. Theyve never broken with more than 10 people left. Theyre insanely good. throw in 2 bolt throwers for kicks and the occasional distraction and theni honestly like cold ones, particularly the dread knights. Theyre decently strong so you throw them behind with the enemy archers and watch them go berserk. Distracts the enemy and reduces front line casualities.

Iv'e been playing with shards more tho because theyre insane. Not sure hiow i feel about withes. They'll mess up most infanty but melt under any other pressure. Literally anything not infanty. Corsairs are a good tar pit but theyre killing power isn't impressive. Bleak swords are a disappointment. Theyre tier 2, only slightly better than spears. By the time i get them, i don't want them because i filled up on spears. I havent used executioners that muich so I;m not sure about them.

Shandor eredeti hozzászólása:

Darkaiser eredeti hozzászólása:

The DE were always a glass cannon on the TT and IMHO they did a good job of representing that here. However, you MUST do your research to help them really thrive mid to late game. It also helps to get the right Lord with the right skills. I usually have one that's specc'd to the max for cheaper recruiting dashing around back home. He gets all of the perks for income in the home territory and Followers that boost the same. He recruits the units at home and then hands them off to the actual battlefield commanders who have all of the army-boosting Skills and the Followers that buff the army recovery time.

So you get the Research buffs for the tier 1 units, plus the Lord Skill buffs for the same and now the guys who were marginal early game are now holding their own mid-game. You have to do this because the AI certainly will.

Glass cannons? Really?
One of my Typical Turnament Darkelf Units got an Armorsave of 2+ and a wardsave against magic and Ranged attacks of 4++.
Lords and Heroes got 2+ Armor on foot without magic items.
The Fast Cav. redirectors got 4+ Armor.
And a Hero on Pegasi got 2+ armor and 3++ aganst magic and missles.

Glass Cannons? Other Factions would give one hand for such a protection.

i played more 40K than fantasy but i feel like the term glass cannon is different bewtween games. The dark eldar were meant to die (at least you had to expect them too) while fantasy, everything had a specific purpose, and once that purpose was fulfilled that were sacrifes. Tho eldar and elves had much different gameplay